9/11 Conspiracy Theories Go Mainstream

9/11 Charlie Sheen CNN poll

I’m bound to catch some flak from certain quarters for giving this the time of day since it’s been one of our policies here that conspiracy theories are largely a waste of time, but when flippin’ New York Mag devotes a 9-page expose on the topic of 9/11 conspiracies… well, something has to give. And on top of that, the poll above is from none other than CNN (which was spawned by Charlie Sheen’s comments on Alex Jones’s conspiracy-driven radio show).

So let’s get out our tin-foil hats and give it the time of day, because in my opinion, 9/11 conspiracy theory just came back into focus:

In his paper “What Is Your ‘HOP’ Level?” Nick Levis, who co-coordinates the N.Y. 9/11 Truth meetings with Father Morales and Les Jamieson, categorizes the basic narrative theories about September 11. The options essentially boil down to four.

(A) The Official Story (a.k.a. “The Official Conspiracy Theory”). The received Bushian line: Osama, nineteen freedom-haters with box cutters, etc. As White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said, there was “no warning.”

(B) The Incompetence Theory (also the Stupidity, Arrogance, “Reno Wall” Theory). Accepts the Official Story, adds failure by the White House, FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. to heed ample warnings. This line was advanced, with much ass-covering compensation, in The 9/11 Commission Report.

(C) LIHOP (or “Let It Happen on Purpose”). Many variations, but primarily that elements of the U.S. government and the private sector were aware of the hijackers’ plans and, recognizing that 9/11 suited their policy goals, did nothing to stop it.

(D) MIHOP (“Made It Happen on Purpose”). The U.S. government or private forces planned and executed the attacks.

Personally, I’m in the Incompetence Theory crowd, while occasionally dipping a toe into the LIHOP mindset when certain questions arise (What happened to the investigation into all the pre 9/11 short-sell stock orders? Why were top brass warned not to fly? Etcetera, etcetera). But my own compass keeps swinging back to current events as we have to ask the hard questions about competence and we watch as this administration so effortlessly fucks up everything it touches.

But for those of you on the outskirts of the MIHOP crowd… take to heart that you have sympathetic ears amongst the most rigidly pro-official-story folk:

“Not answering that,” he said, warning not to ask others in the company, which had lost men on 9/11. This didn’t mean he wasn’t of the opinion that if he lived to be a million he’d never “see anything as corrupt, bullshit, and sad as what happened at the WTC.”

[…] Still, the fireman said, if he had to pick a letter in my poll, it would be A.

“Osama fucking bin Laden, like Bush says. If I thought it was someone else, then I’d have to do something about it. And I don’t want to think about what I’d do.”

Read the whole thing, it’s actually a very good piece. And then feel free to conspiracize your little hearts out in the comments…

Stephen VanDyke

I've published HoT along with about 300+ friends since 2002. We're all Americans who are snarky and love our country. I'm a libertarian that registered Republican because I like to win elections. That's pretty much it.

110 Comments
  1. Something to think about……………….

    Where is the airplane?

    Makes you go “hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?”
    Another conspiracy by the Americans?

    Where is the airplane……..that crashed into the
    Pentagon………?

    Where are the airplane parts?

    Go to this website and watch this film………do it quickly as it has already been pulled off several web sites
    already!……..afterwards you’ll see why!

    http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

  2. I think questioning the reality of the attack itself destroys a lot of credibility, as noted in the article. It’s my personal belief that 4 planes were indeed hijacked and flown into 3 buildings and a field by Al Qaida… but the details other than that are what need to be focused on.

    Hell, get some libertarians elected and you’d see an opening of the floodgates of knowledge by unclassifying everything surrounding 9/11 that isn’t a “true” national security issue. We’d send all the documents to the media and force them to actually do some investigative journalism.

  3. Stephen,

    I will not question that 4 planes were hijacked. I will question why NORAD stood down, why are many of the alleged hijackers still alive, how world trade center 7 collapsed and why did Larry Silverstein say on PBS they decided to “pull it.”

    Many unanswered questions that I just want to see answered. The government works for us and they should answer our questions.

  4. I think questioning the reality of the attack itself destroys a lot of credibility, as noted in the article.

    Did you watch the video?

    It’s my personal belief that 4 planes were indeed hijacked and flown into 3 buildings and a field by Al Qaida… but the details other than that are what need to be focused on.

    Top reasons to doubt the official conspiracy theory.
    http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646

    15) The Ripley Believe It or Not Sideshow of 9/11 Miracles
    http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646#ripley

    Scholars for 9-11 truth
    http://www.st911.org/

  5. Everyone is probably expecting me to go apeshit posting comments…

    For now I’ll just say Kudos to Stephen for not joining the (previous) media blackout on the event.

    My bread and butter argument has always been…

    9/11 Math
    3 WTCs fell that day (1,2,7)
    -2 planes hit (flight 11, 175)
    ————
    =1 unexplained collapse

    but, for now… I defer to others for comments. After all, my feelings on this issue are well known :)

  6. What I want to know is why no one in our government has been reprimanded and why the 9/11 Commission can get away with direct lies and lies of omission. (For example, avoiding Building 7 entirely and using false diagrams and omitting the giant steel support colums in the middle of the towers.)

    Steel melts at around 2795ºF. The highest attainable temperature for hydrocarbons burning in air under perfect conditions is roughly 1517ºF.

    The building designers have made statements declaring the towers were designed to withstand multiple airline strikes from the largest airliners of their day.

    In addition, the audio tapes of the firefighters indicating the fires were nearly put out in the towers, a fact corroborated by video footage, are quite intriguing.

    The truth is out and there is a historical prescedent (Pearl Harbor, USS Liberty, Gulf of Tonkin, etc of our government allowing incidents to enter war.

    Whatever you believe, government failed, and more government certainly won’t help.

  7. Oh, I hate being in the unpopular crowd- it kind of reminds me of high school. But, a couple weeks ago, Ft. Worth brought down a landmark skyscraper to make a parking lot. Riss had a buddy sleeping over and we watched live while they brought it down. Two teenagers with no exposure to conspiracies commented that it looked like the WTC towers coming down. What is it they say? Out of the mouths of babes? You don’t keep power over an inquisitive public. You must make them shit their pants and then pass new laws to protect them. I won’t lie. I called my mom crying on 9/11. I was scared and I wanted to curl up in her lap. I never did want the protection of a big brother though.

  8. Some of you people out there need to WAKE THE HELL UP. It is so blatantly obvious that the official story about 9/11 is a GREAT BIG LIE that anyone who denies it is obviously afraid to confront the evidence.

    http://www.propagandamatrix.com/911_redux.html

    If we were in Germany in 1933 you people would deny that Hitler had anything to do with the Reichstag Fire, but of course you’d have been wrong!

    Our government has a history of lying. The sinking of the Maine and the sinking of the Lusitania. Pearl Harbor. The Gulf Of Tonkin. The sinking of the USS Liberty. Iran-Contra. Waco. Iraq War I. Iraq War II. The Federal Reserve System. The Income Tax. etc.. Our government LIED about all of this stuff and a whole lot more. Our government LIES to us on a dailey basis.

    Is our government lying about 9/11? OF COURSE THEY ARE!

  9. Steel melts at around 2795°F.

    I keep hearing about how it’s impossible for anything to have happened to the steel girders holding up 1 and 2 WTC because the fires weren’t hot enough.

    Bullshit.

    The fires don’t have to be hot enough to melt steel. Not by a long shot. Hot enough simply to weaken it is sufficient, and that temperature is far, far lower. How do you think they made swords out of steel without being able to create fires hot enough to melt it?

    The conspiracy theorists are full of false questions and false answers like this one, which fail after even the slightest bit of REAL research.

  10. Oh, and Andy, I am quite well awake, thank you very much. I sure as hell don’t believe George W. Bush, but I don’t believe the conspiracy theories either, because they’re even more outrageous, and tend to completely ignore simple things like the above.

  11. Michael Hampton, yes you DO believe a conspiracy theory, you just happen to believe the one that is put out by the government and repeated by the mainstream media.

    As for the fires supposedly bringing down the WTC buildings, how come fire hasn’t brought down other steel structure buildings? There have been other steel structure buildings that have had fires that were larger and that burned longer but these buildings did not come down. And what is your explanation for Building 7 of the WTC complex? It didn’t even get hit by a plane and was on the other side of the complex. The fires in Building 7 were small and firefighters said that it was under control but yet Building 7 mysteriously collapsed in what looked like a controlled demolition. WTC leaseholder Larry Silverstein said that Building 7 was “pulled” (which is industry term for a controlled demolition) but later claimed that he meant “pulling people out of the building” or some nonsense like that.

  12. Conspiracy??? How could anyone believe Charlie Sheen? Our government masters would NEVER lie to us or withhold information on something so important as what happened on that fateful day! I’m sure the 9/11 Commission has uncovered everything there is to know about what happened. Come on people! Remember, your gubberment loves you!

  13. Because THOSE buildings didn’t have a jet aircraft collide with them at 500 miles an hour, severing much of the infrastructure holding the building up at that point.

    If you actually watch the videos of the 1 and 2 WTC collapse CAREFULLY, you’ll note that the part ABOVE where the plane hits falls first, into the remainder of the building, which then comes down. It’s right there on every single video, impossible not to see unless you choose not to see it.

    In fact, they fall at an angle, something not seen on every video because you would only notice that from two sides of the building. If the planes had hit lower, they might have fallen into the streets below, rather than into the buildings themselves.

    As for 7 WTC, I don’t know what Silverstein said; I wasn’t there. What I do know is there were newscasters doing live broadcasts inside the building up until moments before it came down. If you were in the city at the time, you could have watched them on WPIX channel 11, the only local station still operating that day.

    I also know that 7 WTC, like most skyscrapers, was designed to collapse straight down. It couldn’t have come down any other way, whether it was a controlled demolition or not. Trying to argue otherwise is trying to argue against the physics which made the building possible in the first place.

    Come up with a better conspiracy theory that actually makes sense and fits the known FACTS, and I might subscribe to it. But I refuse to accept most of the conspiracy theorists’ bullshit as truth.

  14. “Because THOSE buildings didn’t have a jet aircraft collide with them at 500 miles an hour, severing much of the infrastructure holding the building up at that point.”

    WTC 7 was not hit with a plane and I continue to question how it collapsed.

  15. “WTC 7 was not hit with a plane and I continue to question how it collapsed.”

    It might have had something to do with those two VERY BIG skyscrapers next to it falling. You have that much tonnage dropped right next to a building over about a minute, and you wonder why the building fell? I can think of a LOT of reasons, all of which are grounded in engineering and physics.

    Yes, the government is incompetent. I wouldn’t be a good Libertarian if I didn’t think that. But to all the conspiracy theorists who keep telling people like me to “watch the video” and “did you watch the video” or “you must not have read this website”, I say:

    Have you read this Popular Mechanics article:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

    And how can the government be incompetent in fighting the Iraq War, the war on terrorism, delivering the mail, social policy, etc. but be absolutely competent at perpetrating the largest single mass murder in history and covering it up.

  16. but be absolutely competent at perpetrating the largest single mass murder in history and covering it up.

    Good lord you couldn’t get more brainwashed. This was not, by FAR, the largest mass murder in history.

  17. The Popular Mechanics piece attacks propositions that even most conspiracy theorists don’t believe, and when it does address genuine points of contention there points are incomplete at best.
    http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/index.html

    In addition, the fact that it was written by Benjamin Chertoff, cousin of the Head of Homeland Security is going to put it’s credibility in doubt.
    http://www.google.com/search?q=popular+mechanics+chertoff

    To suggest the government is too incompetent to pull this off only servers to make the point: if they were competent there wouldn’t be so many people who have figured it out.

  18. “Have you read this Popular Mechanics article”

    Nice whitewash.

    “I think questioning the reality of the attack itself destroys a lot of credibility, as noted in the article.”

    Actually, as I read the article I noted that most people don’t buy the government’s official conspiracy theory.

    The 9-11 truth movement is huge, and growing rapidly. The Libertarians are small, and in free-fall. And they worry about “losing credibility” by jumping on a huge truth bandwagon? I think the LP would GAIN credibility.

    Since 9/11, just as the real terrorists wanted, the public has let them get away with massive invasions abroad and surveillance at home. This also includes the local police

    http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/010257.html

    And the jail bonds for a continued expansion of the drug war.

    oh btw, since conservatives (and some so-called libertarians) have been too busy noisily agitating for all this to spend much time on small gov, the domestic welfare
    has (cont)

  19. (cont) grown faster than at any time in 40 years with virtually no notice or opposition.

    From all this, we can conclude the terrorist attack was very successful.

    Bush told the truth when he said the terrorists hate us for our freedom but neglected to say he was among the terrorists. He did say there ought to be limits to freedom even before he was picked to be president by the Supremely Kangaroo Kort in a case in which they had no jurisdiction.

    The 9-11 truth movement is our best hope to wake enough people up so that the terrorists can’t pull off a repeat performance, which is likely to result in even more destruction of our liberty than their first strike.

    The LP would do well to be in on this, because it’s all about what we’re all about. The 9-11 Lies have caused millions of people to abandon the quest for freedom, and turn their hopes to the regime to wage war against a phantom enemy – empowering the terrorists, as was their intent. (cont)

  20. (cont) If we can refocus all the anger that has been created against Arabs, Muslims and phantom terrorists – and has empowered the regime – and focus it on the real terrorists – the regime itself – it would be a tremedous victory for liberty.

    We need a Libertarian 9-11 Truth Caucus. Who all is interested?

  21. Mike, I am by no means brainwashed. You just have a hard time with other points of view. Sort of like … ummm … a Republican.

    Brainwashed is saying “Well a plane never hit the building, and it fell down. Therefore it MUST have been taken down with explosives. Alex Jones said so!”

  22. VENEZUELA?! Bush is bad, but that guy’s worse. In fact, I mentioned him this morning. Did you know he has something in common with George W. Bush, BESIDES being rich from oil? He rigged his own election.

    What the hell would 9/11 conspiracy theorists want to get in bed with Hugo Chavez for?! Bloody ridiculous.

    There are a LOT of unanswered questions about 9/11. And they need answering. The problem is that some of these people have come up with completely wrong answers, as far as I can tell having pulled them out of their asses.

    I want REAL answers, and I have a lot more respect for the BYU professor who’s actually trying to lay hands on debris from WTC 7 in order to test it, than I do for the whackjobs who want to blame it on Bush or Cheney or that secret group that really runs the world, without actually having any evidence to support what appear to be utter delusions.

  23. You’ve pointed to theories based on poor interpretations of circumstantial “evidence”.

    I’m with Hampton on this. I don’t completely trust what the government says happened on 911, but I don’t think George Bush directly caused it. There probably were warning signs and some information that in hindsight could have been used to stop the attack, but I don’t think anyone intentionally did nothing to stop the attack.

    The problem is the 911 Truth movement is made up of some respectable people and some wack-jobs. The wack-jobs spout off nonsense and this unfortunately weakens the case for respectable researchers, who will tell you, they do not, and cannot know for certain what exactly happened.

  24. Paulie, I pointed you to an article that refutes what thewebfairy.com says about the “clean pentagon lawn”. Mike actually sent me to a site with an article by a 911 conspiracy “researcher” that supposedly “debunked” Popular Mechanics. Actually, what PM wrote was acturate, the main point of Mike’s article was that PM only addressed issues that were clearly ridiculous, such as the one you just pointed me to. I can respect that.

  25. Chris,

    That is why when I make a claim, I try to back it up with people such as Steven E. Jones.

  26. You’ve pointed to theories based on poor interpretations of circumstantial “evidence”

    Do you have any real evidence to the contrary?

    The problem is the 911 Truth movement is made up of some respectable people and some wack-jobs. The wack-jobs spout off nonsense and this unfortunately weakens the case for respectable researchers, who will tell you, they do not, and cannot know for certain what exactly happened.

    The “don’t question the government because they never lie or do evil movement” is just as guilty.

  27. Oh, and don’t forget that much of the bullshit is coming from known Holocaust deniers, and much of it may be coming from people trying to sabotage inquiry into the attack. Exactly what sort of agenda are they pushing by subverting REAL inquiry into what really happened?

  28. I don’t know. Adobe Reader suddenly won’t open. I’m getting errors related to SELinux. Clearly the NSA has hacked into my computer and is preventing me from learning the truth.

  29. That Popular Mechanics hit piece was written by the cousin of Michael Chertoff who is the current Director of Homeland Security in the Bush administration. That article has already been debunked on-line.

    The WTC Towers were DESIGNED to withstand hits from large airplanes.

    Back in the 1930’s a B-29 bomber crashed into the Empire State Building (by accident). How come the Empire State Building didn’t come crashing down?

    Here’s something interesting to note. George W. Bush’s cousin Marvin Bush was on the board of directors of the company that ran security for the World Trade Center complex. Pretty convient for planting bombs…

  30. Hampton,

    God only knows you can’t use Windows like the rest of us because there is a conspiracy for Microsoft to take over the world… along with wal-mart.

  31. I can’t use Microsoft like the rest of you because I have principles and I stand by them. That principle is I don’t like Bill Gates and he doesn’t get my money. By the way, it was a very common SELinux problem, according to Google, and took all of ten seconds to fix.

    Anybody who believed the NSA took over my computer is a complete moron. And while I’d love it if you complete morons would admit it, I doubt it will happen. Admitting you’re wrong is quite embarrassing. But at least admit it to yourself.

  32. Hampton,

    You got me. It was the NSA, hands down. They are spying on you and they wouldn’t let you open that document. No doubt about it. :)

  33. Mike, I am by no means brainwashed. You just have a hard time with other points of view. Sort of like … ummm … a Republican.

    “points of view” that are factually incorrect, yes. I have a hard time with that.

    These factually incorrect “points of view” somehow become fact to those that are easily brainwashed.

  34. “Not by a long shot…”

    Incorrect. The temp. of the fire was far lower than in prime conditions, and in fact was nearly put out in both towers. What is that temperature at which the steel would have been “sufficient[ly] weaken[ed],” since you are so adament that it is such a low temperature? Your simplistic argument, were it correct, would bring more problems for you precluding the collapses that we observed.

    You demonstrate lack of “REAL” research in this area for you are contradicted by Firefighter Engineering, structural engineering, architectural firms, the underwriters reports on the towers, physics, etc.

    I don’t know what happened, but the official story is full of provable lies and your comments here demonstrate you have fallen for some of them. But as Stephen said, this is pointless

    As I said before, government didn’t help prevent 9/11 and more government won’t stop another one.

  35. Mike, I say that the towers fell because planes hit them, and I’m not being factual?

    I must have been brainwashed. Hampton and I are brainwashed dupes. I wish I wasn’t so stupid. I wish I could understand all of the complicated fancy science you guys keep linking to. At least now I know that all of those years in graduate school learning “physics” were really just brainwashing sessions administered by the NSA.

    Interestingly enough, I can’t seem to open the PDF either. Hmmmmmm.

  36. “What is that temperature at which the steel would have been ‘sufficient[ly] weaken[ed],'”

    Steel begins to weaken at around 200 C (392 F). It looses 50% of its structural strength and sags at around 550 C (1022 F). Of course it depends on the alloy.

  37. Chris,

    It appears those years of graduate, err brainwashing, school didn’t server you very well. I quoted what was not factual in my original response. See #23 above.

    Please try to follow.

  38. The WTC Towers were DESIGNED to withstand hits from large airplanes.

    Back in the 1930’s a B-29 bomber crashed into the Empire State Building (by accident). How come the Empire State Building didn’t come crashing down?

    Umm… this kind of conspiracy stuff is pretty far out there and backed up with little more than easily answered questions.

    The B-29 Bomber that hit the Empire State Building in the 1930’s was actually a B-25 Bomber and it hit in 1945.

    If I remember correctly, the planes that hit the WTC were Boeing 767’s of some variety. So that means they were something like 3 or 4 times larger than the B-25, carrying WAY more fuel. And there were TWO big impacts right next to each other.

    Also… a 767 can easily reach speeds of more than 500 mph while a B-25 tops out at a maximum speed of around 275mph.

    Comparing those two planes is like comparing a Kia SUV with a Monster Truck.

  39. Incredibly, everyone has so far left out the important piece of the puzzle.. The actual architects of the WTC have not stopped questioning the collapse Since the day they happened. For Mikes opinion, 99% of the Jet Fuel burned in the first 10 seconds of impact. the flash-fireball and then nothing. No constant burning or ongoing source of fuel to reach anywhere near steel weakening points.
    In fact, 2 minutes later people were standing in the impact hole looking out… There are photos of that. At the place where it was “hot enough to melt steel” People were curiously walking around calmy. In the words of the architect themselves: “These towers were built to withstand MULTIPLE such hits from these same types of aircraft without coming down.”
    Now…. Mr Silverstein.. what was that about a building being pulled?
    http://reopen911.org

  40. Actually, what PM wrote was acturate,

    Not in the slightest. Obvious propaganda whitewash by a Chertoff.

    There probably were warning signs and some information that in hindsight could have been used to stop the attack, but I don’t think anyone intentionally did nothing to stop the attack.

    Nonsense. It’s blatantly obvious they knew about it ahead of time. Cheney did it and Bush knew. The evidence is far too overwhelming.

  41. What is telling, is the the official government commission report doesn’t even mention WTC7’s collapse. In fact, FEMA says that there own theory has a “low probability of occurrence”. The NIST report decided to decouple it from their main report because (IMHO) they couldn’t figure out how to spin it.

    Regarding the fall of WTC1 and WTC2 being the cause. The buildings were ~ 1 football field away. Closer buildings received less debris and remained standing. The fires in WTC7 mysteriously started around 3 and remained small and confined. The falls registered as 2.1 and 2.0 earthquakes. If that is what took the buildings down, all of NYC would be rubble by now from a “monster” 3.0

    Only on 9/11 could a 47 floor building fall 0.6 seconds slower than free fall without the citizenry questioning it.

    Face is, you’re desperately trying to cling to the theory that “if we were in power, the government would be fixed”, not realizing, it’s broken beyond repair.

  42. Some of the posts surely reinforce the belief among the general population that libertarians are nothing but a bunch of paranoid crack pots.

    The anarchists and “blame everything on the government” theorists certainly do us a lot of good when it comes time to ask for votes for libertarians.

    There is a lot wrong with our present group of bandits, wimps and authoritarian neanderthals now in office (Democrats and Republicans) but folks, obviously you really don’t care if we elect libertarians to office where we can make a change.

    What are you hoping for, a shooting revolution? You do not have the guts for that kind of utter chaos and violence so wake up.

    You reinforce why I have become a member of the Libertarian Reform Caucus, a forum where change can take place for the good and an avenue for libertarians to eventually get elected by sane Americans.

    Once the reforms are in place, our purge list will include the anarchists and conspiracy theorists.

  43. If you are new to this milieu; please check out this criticism of the 9/11 Commission;

    THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT ONE YEAR LATER…
    A CITIZENS’ RESPONSE – DID THE COMMISSION GET IT RIGHT?

    http://www.gnn.tv/B12001

    There are so many problems with the “Official Conspiracy Theory” that to ignore them is practically criminal, and may be bad for our collective health if we don’t engage this topic in a forthright and immediate manner.

    Because if they did do it, and got away with it, they will do it again.

    “Recidivism.”

    Julian, your Conspiracy Theory that “The anarchists and “blame everything on the government” theorists” are costing you votes is charming.

    It’s reminescent of Democrats sitting around trying to figure out how to “frame the debate” while the Repubs simply steal the election anyhow.

    It’s like ripping all the wood out of your house because you have a termite problem.

  44. Julian,

    What are you doing to get libertarians elected besides whining on here? Are you running for office? Contributing to camapaigns? Doing anything?

    You seem to understand what it takes to get elected so well, I have to wonder why you aren’t in office yet.

  45. Mike Nelson

    I’m working on it. Do you want me to run as a Libertarian or do you have other ideas? I’ll entertain them. I may surprise you and actually get elected to some position as a Libertarian but only with your permission (ok, so I don’t need your permission, I lied).

  46. What about: 1) WTC 6 (the one with the big crater in it); 2) the Ruppert/Singh focus on the “war games”; 3) all that missing money; 4) the OODA loop and Dick Cheney; 5) the pool of molten steel at the bottom of the debris pile; 6) the fact that the government has obstructed, impeded, or quashed investigation, has destroyed evidence, sits on required investigations (e.g.,NTSB), evades questions, and engages in disinformation????? Where is the evidence that backs up “the official story”?

  47. Julian,

    Please do. Although your demeanor and ideology is probably more compatible with the Republican Party – especially considering the amount of hatred you have built up.

  48. “Oh, and don’t forget that much of the bullshit is coming from known Holocaust deniers, and much of it may be coming from people trying to sabotage inquiry into the attack. Exactly what sort of agenda are they pushing by subverting REAL inquiry into what really happened?

    Comment by Michael Hampton”

    ^Michael Hampton I totally with you on that, there is a tremendous amount of crap on the internet regarding 9/11. But what happened to building 7 is genuinely suspicious, some of it’s steel members were apparently “partly evaporated”;

    “A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said.”
    http://nogw.com/documents/0927200307NYTimes7WTCwhy_page.htm

    Steel evaporates at 2860ºC, a hydrocarbon fire burning even in perfect conditions burns at no higher then 825ºC, couldn’t have done that, demolition explosives on the other hand?

  49. “Once the reforms are in place, our purge list will include the anarchists and conspiracy theorists.”

    Comment by Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    “your PURGE list?” Shame on you.

    Next you will be rounding up people with freckles, then the intellectuals, those with ambiguous genetics, even donning Brown Shirts and Goosestepping down past the Whitehouse seig heiling the new fuhrer of America.
    If this is what the New American Century wanted when Dov Zackheim looted $3 Trillion US and vanished back to ISRAEL then Im afraid they got it. A whole Cadre of morons willing to dance the BUSH_Monkey dance for a bag of dimes. Play the right tune, dangle a banana and watch them turn their Mother over to Homeland Security for “Not agreeing with the Party-Line”.
    Did Vietnam and the Gulf of Tonkin-(lie) not teach you anything? Perhaps that Agent Orange rapidly disseminates the logic part of the brain in its victims. SHAME>

  50. To Michael Hampton, post number 15 and others:
    There was molten steel at the Ground 0, long after the buildings came down. Please explain that (friction caused by buildings and their contents in free fall perhaps?).
    Regarding Chavez, once you know what the CIA has done, what its history really is, (see “The CIA’s Greatest Hits” By Mark Zepezauer for the short version, common courage press, odonian press, or “The CIA, a forgotten history” by William Blum for a longer version, or the “Covert Action Informatin Bulletin” for a running play by play, and remember, the information in those sources is just some of what’s come to light, it stands to reason that there may be much more that we don’t know about, and never will) then it will be easy to conclude that whoever they hate the most must be the good guys, because they are certainly the bad guys. The people they hate the most are Marxists, and Chavez kinda qualifies as one. Labor creates wealth. That’s how the slave holders got rich.

  51. I think that’s the most bizarre defense of Marxism I’ve ever read.

    As for the molten steel, I’m not even going to attempt to explain it, because I have no theories to push.

  52. Michael H: I didn’t intend to be bizarre. With 1000 characters, it’s hard to do a discussion of economics. It can be complicated, but it’s often a good idea to “see simplicity in the complicated.” Good guy / bad guy is a shortcut for understanding players. Labor creates wealth is a fact well established by objective reality and well articulated by many Marxists.
    Andy W: Thanks, if you were being sincere. If you were being facitious (sp?), I at least got the molten steel in there at the top. Here’a a quick list
    Bush and Cheney fought tooth and nail against an inquiry, then only agreed to testify before the commission together, not seperately, and not under oath and allowed no record to be made of their testimony. Why?
    (lots of physical evidence has already been discussed, I’ll try to stay on relatively untrodden ground, though I haven’t read every post)
    A fair number of honest FBI agents tried to come forward before the attacks with very specific knowledge of them that was “widely know

  53. As for the molten steel, I’m not even going to attempt to explain it, because I have no theories to push.

    It appears as though you are pushing the theory that you have made up your closed mind and refuse to listen to reason.

  54. Do we really need the same links posted over and over again, especially without any sort of explanation?

    Anyway, something interesting was posted above and I looked into it. A Popular Mechanics article “debunking” 9/11 “myths” was written by one Benjamin Chertoff, cousin to DHS secretary Michael Chertoff.

    After much time spent researching this claim, I’ve found it’s at least misleading, and quite possibly false.

    First, the article was written by eight researchers, of which Chertoff was the lead researcher. What’s up with the other seven? And the hundreds of quite credible sources?

    Second, the claim of relationship is questionable. Despite being very widely reported on various sites, it’s never been reported in any reputable news media that I could find, and the only “source” for the claim turns out to be the holocaust deniers American Free “Press,” an unreliable source at best.

    So the jury’s still out on this one.

  55. Mike, I don’t refuse to listen to reason. It’s just that nobody’s presented any yet.

  56. Despite being very widely reported on various sites, it’s never been reported in any reputable news media that I could find, and the only “source” for the claim turns out to be the holocaust deniers American Free “Press,” an unreliable source at best.

    Your right, the only reliable sources are CNN and Fox News.

  57. Mike, I don’t refuse to listen to reason. It’s just that nobody’s presented any yet.

    Really? So the only arguments or facts you consider reasonable are those that fit your pre-determined decisions?

  58. Faux News and Crappy News Network? Ha. Biased as all hell, but they usually manage to get basic facts right. I can’t say the same for the holocaust deniers.

  59. Mike, what the hell is your problem? I’ve been perfectly clear on this point.

    In case you need it explained AGAIN:

    I believe in science and hard evidence, and there’s precious little of it here. And much of the “evidence” has been presented can be easily debunked by anybody with a high school level of knowledge of the sciences.

    Much of it, however, cannot, and bears further inquiry. Some people are actually DOING that scientific inquiry, and unless they make some obvious mistake, I’ll accept what they come up with. Some people are just spouting off half-baked theories. And some are intentionally spouting off bullshit to keep people away from the truth.

    The problem here is this: there is a LOT of bullshit being passed around as “truth” here, both by the government and by various anti-government people. What I want is hard evidence, the kind I can take into a courtroom and get a conviction with from any jury you care to pick. And much of this “evidence” just doesn’t stand up.

  60. Hampton,

    You will never get the truth as long as you dismiss everything as “bullshit”. What if some of that “bullshit” turns out to be true? Now I am not saying that you should believe all the crap that is thrown at you, but to dismiss everything that comes from a holocaust denier simply because they deny holocaust, whether the information provided is related to the holocaust or not, is absurd. The same applies to Hugo Chavez.

    The “problem” I have is with people that dismiss everything, that doesn’t fit their prejudices perfectly, as “bullshit”, or “half-baked theories”, or “conspiracy theories”. This mentality is counterproductive.

  61. It’s simpler than high school. Structural steel melts at a significantly higher temperature than jet fuel burns in a pure oxygen atmosphere. There is significant evidence to suggest that the fires were not burning at the highest possible temperature. Molten steel was found at the site long after the buildings collapsed. Please explain the molten steel. Thank you.

  62. Spam filter got me. I’ll say again,
    Elementary Watson, structural steel melts at a significantly higher temperature than jet fuel burns. Explain the molten steel found long after the “collapse.” Thnx.

  63. Ah, yes, my prejudice for the truth is going to prevent me from ever getting it. Nice argument. Try again.

  64. It is more simple than high school. Steel melts at a significantly higher temperature than jet fuel can burn at. Molten steel was found at the site.

  65. Many Thanks Vesa, and to your Finnish Doctor of Engineering and accident researcher!!! Many Thanks for your help!! ( P.S. I love that pickled herring, though I think it may be Swedish and not Finnish… I think it’s called Sill perhaps? Yum!)

  66. Check out Scholars For 9/11 Truth. This is a group of people from the academic world who have researched 9/11 and how now believe that the official government story about 9/11 is a LIE. Here’s their website…

    http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

    Be sure and read the essay by physics professor Steven Jones on the collapse of the WTC Towers.

  67. 25 rules of disinfo

    http://www.matriots.com/bh/25.html
    #14 Demand complete solutions.

    Michael Hampton claims that he is willing to listen to reason, yet no one has presented it yet.

    However, do you feel the official explanation is reasonable? That somehow Al Qaeda not only hit the towers with planes (some of the suspects still alive mind you), they made money selling short the two air lines they hijacked, they then managed to get the news stations to cover this up, they also managed to have NORAD stand down, and they even had the secret service violate protocol and let the president listen to “my pet goat”.

    And the best you can muster, is trying to label the 9/11 movement as holocaust deniers? Why not play the “they hate minorities” card too?

    Frankly, the government’s conspiracy theory about the 19 cave dwellers pulling off this miraculous heist is far more difficult than those with all the insider information.

    Try again.

    -Rick

  68. Rick, it’s clear you didn’t bother to read and understand what I actually wrote. That’s unfortunate; you otherwise seem to be an intelligent person.

    As for “complete solutions,” I demand nothing of the sort. I only “demand” that somebody present an answer that makes more sense than the barely believable, and unproven, theories put forth by some of the wackos in the so-called “9/11 Truth” movement.

    Oh, and they are Holocaust deniers, and they do hate minorities.

  69. Michael Hampton,

    I read everything you wrote, what did I miss?

    More bluntly. I believe that rogue international military factions (including people who are members of our government) were the real perpetrators of 9/11. My question to you is the following.

    What person or group was directly responsible for 9/11?

    Sounds simple, but I await your (direct/concise) answer.

  70. So, wait a minute, 19 terrorists acting more or less under the direction of Osama bin Laden didn’t hijack four planes and fly them into the WTC, Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania?

    Do you have some evidence of this?

    And how do you explain the Zacarias Moussaoui trial? Is it a complete farce?

  71. Michael Hampton,

    Answer the question.

    Who do you believe was directly responsible for 9/11?
    The followup question is, what is the factual basis/evidence for this claim/belief?

  72. The people flying the planes, of course. A factual basis for this? A whole shitload of people saw the planes fly into the buildings. Who was flying the planes? I have no idea, and THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT!

    Now you try answering a question.

  73. As for “complete solutions,” I demand nothing of the sort. I only “demand” that somebody present an answer that makes more sense than the barely believable, and unproven, theories put forth by some of the wackos in the so-called “9/11 Truth” movement.

    Ahh, I see. So scientific contradictions are “barely believable, and unproven, theories”, but your very bizarre theory that all people that reject the government’s explaination of 9/11 are holocaust deniers, that hate minorities, is supposed to be considered rational?

    Put your head back in the sand, you are hopeless.

  74. Michael Hampton,

    Who was flying the planes then? If it’s so obvious, then please educate me.

    A specific person and group.
    Who do you believe was directly responsible for 9/11?

    This is the 3rd time I’m asking for a simple answer to a simple question. Merely claiming “I don’t know” means that you cannot support the official theory, which states without doubt, that it was the 19 Arab hijackers listed by the FBI, with Osama being the mastermind.

    My presumed answer for you, unless you actually answer the question, will be: 9/11 was carried out solely by Al Qaeda, with Osama Bin Laden as the mastermind.

  75. I never said I supported the official theory, and in fact I said that I don’t!

    I also never said that all people who reject the government’s explanation of 9/11 were holocaust deniers that hate minorities. Just the very specific ones I linked to.

    Or didn’t either of you bother to pay attention?

  76. Hampton,

    Anytime any explaination, contrary to the government’s, emerges you blatantly dismiss it as originating from holocaust deniers and therefore it must garbage. This is just as irrational as someone dismissing everything you say as garbage simply because you are an irrational person. The fact that you are usually irrational doesn’t mean you can’t accidentally spit out something rational once in a while.

    You surely understand that people are individuals don’t you?

  77. Michael Hampton,

    So you don’t support the official theory, and yet you don’t support the controlled demolition theory.

    What exactly IS your position then?

  78. Hi Michael (Cook), and thanks. Yes, that “silli” thing is a Swedish invention. I’ve heard horror stories about it (about the smell and taste). No self-respecting Finn touches that thing. :)

    *Our* traditional delicacy is called “mämmi”, eaten especially during Easter time. You can see a picture of it here:

    http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuva:M%C3%A4mmi.jpg

    Yammy-looking, don’t you think? ;-)

  79. Hello Vesa,
    Silli is wonderful, to smell and taste! No self respecting American will touch anything but hotdogs, white bread, and very poorly made beer, but I guess I don’t qualify :-)
    Your “mammi” looks very yummy! It is almost Easter. I will have to try some and hide it for the kids on their Easter Egg Hunt. (Do you do Easter Egg Hunts over there? Lot’s of fun)
    Maybe it was a dangerous mixture of Silli and Mammi that caused the collapse of building 7!! :-o Be careful with that stuff!
    Do you have a web cam? I think it is fun to video conference with people around the world. I guess that you are starting to have more daylight hours now. Very good!
    We have a new movie here on 9/11 that you can check out at http://www.improbablecollapse.com It starts on 4/9/06. I don’t think they examine the silli / mammi theory….
    Peace and happiness!
    Mike

  80. Hello Mike,

    dark and whole-grain bread are — in addition to mämmi — something I wouldn’t like to give up. Much healthier, let alone tastier, than white bread. We do give Easter eggs, but do not do egg hunting. Instead, we do what is known as “virpominen”:

    http://www.fingerlakesfinns.org/events/apr04.htm

    I don’t have a webcam, but you can always write to me using the link on my blog.

    Is it true that the collapse of WTC 7 has only been shown on TV a few times on September 11th and not once after that? I think that’s ridiculous. If a skyscraper collapsed into dust here, the event would be subject to both intensive investigation and a huge amount of news coverage (neither of which seems to have been the case with WTC 7). And certainly no part of the steel would be recycled until the very final report had been written. NIST lead investigator recently confessed on the New York Magazine interview that they do not really “understand” why WTC 7 collapsed. No wonder.

  81. Yes, unfortunately it is true. Many, probably most, people in the U.S. do not even know about Building 7. It should have and would have been the cause of massive investigation, if it wasn’t an inside job.

    I’ll catch up with you and “virpominen” soon.

  82. The former head of the Star Wars missle defense program has come out and called 9/11 an inside job that was staged by people within our own government, and he names Dick Cheney as a prime suspect. This is just another name on a growing list of credible people (such as physics professor Steven Jones, economists Paul Craig Roberts and Morgan Renyolds, and others) who have gone public and called 9/11 an inside job.

    http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/former_head_of_star_wars_say_cheney_main_911_suspect.htm

  83. The 4 planes were hijacked but obviously not by the 19 arabs named by the government since 9 of them are alive and well, they were more then likely hijacked by global hawk from northrop grumman. I don’t see how anyone who is willing to honestly look at the facts and mentally capable of understanding them can still accept the official government conspiracy theory. The mainstream media has deliberately overlooked the facts that contradict the official story but there is this to consider. If the government killed 3,000+ people for a lie, how many would they be willing to kill to protect that lie. The government has access to every infectious we know about and some that we don’t know about. Isn’t it our government who is supposed to be protecting us against the up and coming avian flu?

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20051012&articleId=1071

    Lies so we can have our slow death from oil addiction or a quick death by bird flu.

  84. The 9/11 Truth Movement people have had five years to convince a single structural engineer about their theory, and they have utterly failed. Game over.

  85. I’m reading various postings citing closed-mindedness. The conspirators of these series’ of unconscionable acts are banking (pun intended) on the ignorance, apathy, and misguided trust of so many like those commenting here. These conspirators are laughing all the way to the bank (another intended pun)at how “the sheep” are so easily herded in their predetermined course. It is not a matter of being right. Who, in their right mind, would want these “unofficial conspiracies” to be true? I have four kids, a great job, loving wife… But my children will hopefully have children, and theirs’ theirs. I cannot bury my head in the sand. There is nothing blissful about remaining ignorant on this issue. Do your own research. Make your own decision, but please, don’t just accept what is dished out to you in a trough because it is more convenient and comfortable, or because you want to be right.

    “The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists
    in leading him from error to truth.”
    — St. Thomas Aquinas

    “When tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be
    in the guise of fighting a foreign foe.”
    — James Madison

    “During times of universal deceit, telling
    the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”
    — George Orwell

  86. Stop. Look People.

    The building were demolished from within. Why is it that people somehow need the government to say something is true in order for it to be true? Why must the banking-elite owned press and the same forces which brought about this situation need to sanction what we know happened in order to somehow legitimize it? This is the same press that even now backs the lone gunman theory. It’s legitimate for no other reason than that it’s true on it’s face, for anyone with eyes and ears. It’s either now, right now, or never. Run for office, no matter how “small” and local. Make noise. Buy a gun and get someone responsible to train you how to use it. I’ve never owned a gun in my life, but am going to now. Things are different now. There has been a coup of our government, and they’re not nice people – they don’t like you.