The TX Gubernatorial Debate

North Texas libertarians were invited to attend the gubernatorial debate viewing at Collin County Community College Spring Creek Campus. We were invited to set up a table from which we could distribute bumper stickers, yard signs and such. We were invited to an event that included Libertarian candidate, James Werner- OK- the main event did not include him, but CCCCD’s program did.

I found out about the invite today. Some of you may know that I just arrived back into town from a short vacay, but we managed, last minute, to have five libertarians there. I was one of those libertarians. My company included candidates, Scott Jameson (US Senate), Matt Moseley (TX House 112), Ben Westfried (TX66) and Brent Friedman, the infinitely more competent half of me-Brent is the VC of the Collin County Libertarian Party. (C’mon, we all know that the chairman is a figurehead with a reliable address and that the VC does the work. ;o) Apart from titles, Brent is kickin’ tail with his (re)establishment of UTD’s Libertarian Party. In fact, the UTD alternative publication, A Modest Proposal ran Brent’s success as a front “real page” story titled “Life, Libertarians and the Pursuit of Congress”. I would link to the glowing article, but I only have it in hard copy right now and it is probably more important to tell you what I heard and saw.

I see Perry winning. The debate was like a Westminster Dog Show- you know the type- you see the studs and bitches that everyone raves about. Perfect breeding or inbreeding- neither creates the perfect pet. Kinky displayed what he is: a person full of his own one liners. Strayhorn did the same, though she is one tough scratched record Grandma, and we can all (under 30 crowd excluded) relate to that one. Chris Bell, the Democrat, actually seemed to be a viable candidate. His problem? He did not advocate the debate inclusion of the one candidate that would help him- James Werner.

Libs have always been linked to the right. That is sad because it only focuses on economics. We would be better linked to the left- the left before it was monopolized by socialist types who feel better about their own wealth when they (re)distribute everyone else’s.

Libertarians are realists. We deal in the cold hard facts of personal freedom and responsibility. We are realists when we admit that someone may throw away his/her life in the pursuit of something of a drugged (Republican/Democrat/coke/heroin) nature. Libertarians understand that there is no free ride. There is no education problem. There is no “fix it for me Daddy” issue. We understand that the problem is within the person or the person parenting.

Libertarians understand that we must take back everything if we are to succeed as something worth anything. James Werner understands that. He is not fighting as our parent- he is fighting for our right to parent. He is attempting to wrestle from the “big league politicians” the right to govern ourselves.

VanDyke recently published chicken costumes at a debate. I LOVE that idea. But, wouldn’t a better idea be to punish your neighbor with a chicken costume when they attempt to abdicate their throne of authority to the state? It would make the gubernatorial debates nearly meaningless.

posted by michelleshinghal
  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Libertarians are linked to the Right for a very good reason, because we are Right! What was Barry Goldwater, a liberal?

    Here’s the breakdown:

    Libertarians on Economics – 100% Right Wing

    We’re more free market than anyone else out there with the sole exception of a handful of Economic Conservatives like Walter Williams, Rush Limbaugh, Larry Kudlow, National Review guys, Wall Street Journal types et.al.

    Libertarians on Civil Liberties – 50% Right Wing

    We oppose Gun Laws, Restrictions and outrageous licensing fees for hunters and anglers, Nanny State laws that the liberals want to impose on us like seat belt laws and lower speed limits, restrictions on our free speech through political correctness and affirmative action. Drugs are split these days, with some conservatives supporting it and some liberals supporting it. Only on Pro-Choice and a Tolerance for Gays and a few other sexually-oriented civil liberties issues do we side with Liberals.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Libertarians on Foreign Policy/Defense – 75% Right Wing

    We oppose membership in the United Nations like Conservative. Like many Conservatives, particularly John Birchers, we are skeptical of all Foreign Aid and want it abolished.

    We oppose Islamo-Fascism because the Islamo-Fascists want to grossly violate our civil liberties.

    Though, we are worried about the costs of War, and are less supportive than Conservatives about paying for Iraq and Afghanistan.

    And there’s a very vocal, quite disruptive, Anti-War wing within the libertarian movement, which makes it appear to others like we are Liberals on the issue. When the truth is the movement is split right down the middle. A survey by LP Director Bill Winters, for example, showed that fully “40% of LP members supported the War in Iraq.” Within the Republican Liberty Caucus, that number is probably closer to 60 to 70%.

    So, we agree with the Right on most of their Agenda.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Chicken costumes are getting cliche’. Everyone uses it these days. Try something different.

    Besides, quite frankly, Werner should just drop out of the race and endorse Kinky.

    Does it make any sense in the world to have two libertarians running against each other for Governor of Texas??

    Kinky can win this thing. Imagine if he loses by just 2 points that Werner got. How will we libertarians feel then?

    Werner DROP OUT AND ENDORSE KINKY WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME!!! Stop splintering our libertarian movement. You might get a Cabinet appointment from Kinky out of it?

  • Matt

    Ditto to #3. Kinky’s popular enough to win and if Werner gets a cabinet nominee he’ll be in a good position to keep Kinky honest.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Kinky was booed during the debate viewing. People said they changed their minds after watching. Kinky is a non-issue after last night.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Eric, I would sooner call you to my daughter’s bed than push for a Werner drop out. Kinky is funny, but that is it. He is not the right person for the job. The others aren’t either, and it is too bad that people claiming to be libertarian don’t fucking shut up and support libertarian candidates. Thinking of it, Kinky should drop out after last night’s miserable excuse of a debate and endorse Werner.

  • http://libertyforamerica.net/blog/24 Equal Opportunity Cynic

    What I’ve read on this site has tentatively convinced me that Kinky Friedman is not libertarian. That said, Dondero’s pleas for Werner to drop out remind me how valuable reforms like IRV would be, and how it would valuable a third-party coalition strategy could be in getting us there.

    I know this is old hat for most of us, but here’s how my IRV might look if I lived in Texas:

    Werner
    Strayhorn
    Friedman
    Some write-in friend of mine who lives in Texas
    Bell
    Bevo


    999,999. Perry

    But here’s the rub: if voting for say a Green, under the understanding that Greens would vote for a Libertarian in an adjoining district, were the price to get there, could you do it?

    I’m going to venture to guess that most people here would not go that far, and this is one reason why the two-party system is so entrenched.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    This is the only place I’ve heard where Kinky had a “miserable performance” in the debate. Most news I’ve seen says that all the candidates lived up to expectations and appealed to each of their particular constituencies.

    Could it be a little jealousy at work from Werner supporters wanting to bring Kinky down?

    And saying that Kinky is not libertarian is absolutely absurd. Just because he doesn’t have a membership in the Libertarian Party nor subscribe to the Radical Caucus version of the LP platform does not mean he’s not libertarian. The libertarian movement is much, much, much broader than the Libertarian Party.

    Kinky is a mainstream libertarian. Probably about 80/80 on the World’s Smallest Political Quiz.

    Hell, he just came out for mairjuana legalization. What else do you want?

  • disinter

    Chris Bell a viable candidate? You are kidding right?

  • disinter

    I thought Kinky did well in the debate. He is the only one that came across as a real human being, as opposed to some fake barbie doll spewing rehearsed lies.

  • Brian

    Dondero, enough with the “we”. Speak for yourself, because you don’t speak for most libertarians.

    I am not right wing and Rush Limbaugh is not free market.

    And you say, “Drugs are split these days, with some conservatives supporting it and some liberals supporting it. ”

    which is obviously BS.

    The “right’s agenda” that you want to believe libertarians agree with, is the opposite of libertarian.

  • Brian

    Dondero said:
    “And there’s a very vocal, quite disruptive, Anti-War wing within the libertarian movement, which makes it appear to others like we are Liberals on the issue. When the truth is the movement is split right down the middle.”

    This should read:
    “And there’s a very vocal, quite disruptive, War wing within the libertarian movement, which makes it appear to others like we are assholes on the issue. When the truth is the movement is mostly anti-war with the exception of 2% Boortz republicans like Dondero.”

  • Darcy Richardson

    Brian is right. I’ve always been struck by Dondero’s use of the word “we,” as if he was speaking for a majority of libertarians. I knew that wasn’t the case and just assumed he had a tapeworm or something.

  • Lloyd Laughlin

    HELP the one Libertarian who can win in 30 days: BOB SMITHER, Congress, TX, Dist 22.

    http://www.smither4congress.com

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Mike, Kinky was a joke. He looked like a real person alright. A really lovable loser. Strayhorn was just as bad. This joke of a debate will lock up Perry’s win.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Hell, he just came out for mairjuana legalization. What else do you want?

    Yeah, cuz that is the first and only priority for libertarians.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    This is the only place I’ve heard where Kinky had a “miserable performance” in the debate. Most news I’ve seen says that all the candidates lived up to expectations and appealed to each of their particular constituencies.

    lived up to expectations really says nothing of performance

  • disinter

    Mike, Kinky was a joke. He looked like a real person alright. A really lovable loser. Strayhorn was just as bad. This joke of a debate will lock up Perry’s win.

    I found kinky to be the only genuine person on the stage. if you prefer fake clowns with lots of make-up and lies, then yes, I can see how you resonate with Bell. There is no doubt that Perry will win.

  • disinter

    Yeah, cuz that is the first and only priority for libertarians.

    It would be a damn good start.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Dude- I am voting Werner- I never supported Bell but mentioned that Bell f’d up by not insisting that Werner be in.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Kinky may be better than Perry and the other Republocrat choices, but he’s not a libertarian. I managed to catch bits and pieces of the debate last night, and the bits I saw of Kinky, quite frankly, were very disappointing. I was expecting to see something refreshing and dynamic, but my impression was more like, “what’s Boxcar Willie doing up there?”

    Maybe I need to catch a replay of the entire debate, but until then, it pretty much killed any thoughts I had of NOT voting for Werner.

  • disinter
  • http://www.reformthelp.org Nick Wilson

    First of all, Eric, shut the hell up. Ditto to Brian’s comment.

    Second, from what it sounds like, from a non-ideological standpoint, Chris Bell is charming a lot of people by appearing very moderate and levelheaded. I’m not agreeing with him at all, I’m just saying he seems like the strongest candidate in the race on terms of pure political appeal to your average person, maybe in the center of the Nolan Chart. Strayhorn and Perry are both squarely in the authoritarian quadrant. Kinky seems center-libertarian and Werner is libertarian.

    Finally, Michelle, are you sure your perception of Kinky’s performance was not tainted by your bias against him? (I don’t know, I didn’t watch it, as I am living in Japan temporarily.) While Kinky is not my ideal candidate, I lean towards supporting him because he has put electoral reform as the centerpiece of his campaign, which will only benefit Libs in the long term.

  • http://libertyforamerica.net/blog/24 Equal Opportunity Cynic

    Off topic….

    Is there any way that I’m overlooking to get an RSS feed of the comments on this site? If not I may just write my own damn parser, because checking the last 10 threads to see if anyone has posted anything is kind of time-consuming. But it also seems like a waste of time to go to this effort when the data’s right there in the backend waiting to be presented in the format I need.

    Thanks in advance.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I like Kinky. I think he is funny. He was funny last night- he just did not appear to have any answers.

  • hayseed

    I don’t know why there is reticence for Libs to support Kinky – he IS viable. And the debate? I’m sure only the converted were watching anyway…there was football to tailgate for…

  • disinter

    EOC – I am not sure about RSS feeds for the comments, but Netvibes is my RSS reader of choice…. it makes it easy to navigate to each post to check the comments.

  • http://kinkyisawesome.blogspot.com/ Kinky is Awesome

    I wish I could be the first blogger-for-Kinky to graciously concede that Bell won the debate hands down, but Ian and TheLongHaul and ExColl beat me to it.

    Ian graciously said:

    I think most Kinky supporters, myself included, had assumed that the question wasn’t “if” Kinky would win the debate, but instead by “how much”. Perry is the perfect punching bag, and Kinky seemed well equipped to run circles around the status quo politicians. Debates are glorified battles of the one-liner, and it seemed silly to think that the Kinky, the master of the one-liner who had 30 years experience being on stage, could somehow fumble on his biggest night. But he did. … The fact that Kinky couldn’t name a single black guy from Texas on his staff was rather embarrassing. The fact that Kinky looked like the cranky old redneck from the Hill Country didn’t help. … The fact that Kinky was forced to say, “I agree with Bell” on this and that only helped to make Bell look like the only grown-up on stage. … I watched the debate in Dallas with some of my old Kinky friends. I must admit that I was shocked that Bell actually got some scattered applause. Obviously, the Kinksters groaned and laughed when Bell said, “I’m a serious man with a serious plan.” But other than that awkward line, I’d say Bell did what he had to do. … congrats to Team Bell for hanging in there and delivering on the one night that mattered the most.

    TheLongHaul graciously said:

    Bell did a great job. The thing that helped Bell the most, was time limits. We all know how boring he can be, and how he can go on and on, but the best thing that happened to him was time limits. He will probably benefit the most from the debates…. Kinky needed to come out strong and present himself as a valid candidate in order to break away from the pack. I don’t think he did as well as he could have, but I don’t feel he will lose many votes.

    ExColl graciously said:

    In my unbiased, professional/amateur opinion, the winner was clearly”¦. Chris Bell. ?!?! Yes, I said it. While I still support Kinky, I have to say he was not his normal self at the debate. Chris Bell, on the other hand proved that he was, despite contrary reports, alive. He did have the best line of the debate. When asked if he knew whether there were term limits for the governor, his response ( I don’t remember the quote, but it was very close to this): “That is the single best reason to vote for me. There are no term limits for Governor and our current Governor has said if he wins this election, he will run again.” Snap!… Kinky got in a few zingers, but nothing new if you have been following him. Frankly, I was disappointed. I saw him speak at the Student Union this week, and basically he said the same things. Kinky lost an opportunity, albeit, considering the timing of the debate, not a big one.

    I would like to lend my voice to Ian and TheLongHaul and ExColl. Bell won the debate convincingly. Kinky fell short of my expectations, especially on questions which Kinky should have anticipated. Plus Kinky didn’t help matters much with his post debate comments “Right now, I’m still voting for myself” and “Jesse Ventura convinced me I shouldn’t be for a wall because ten years from now we might want to be getting out of here.”

    The war isn’t over, but Bell won this battle decisively. Congratulations to team Bell. Enjoy your victory because we’re gonna win in November!

  • Seth

    EOC: yes, there is… I use it with bloglines (my fav way to track rss)

    Try http://hammeroftruth.com/wp-commentsrss2.php

  • Lloyd Laughlin

    Libertarians need to focus on the ONE Libertarian who can win in 30 days: BOB SMITHER.

    HELP HIM !

    http://www.smither4congress.com

  • undercover_anarchist

    Free market =/ “right-wing”

    Current system = right-wing

    Free market = free, fair

    Dondero, as a conservative I’m sure you don’t think much of book learning. But you ought to consider what the word “liberal” means, and what the word “conservative” means.

    Were the students who were beaten and killed in Tienamen (sp) Square “conservatives?”

    Are the opponents of Islamicism in Iran and elsewhere “conservatives?”

    No. They were/are liberals. As was Adam Smith. Capitalism = liberalism. Conservatism = despotism.

    Is Osama bin Laden a liberal or a conservative? How about the Saudis? How about the current Chinese regime?

    Words have meanings. You throw them around as if they don’t. The language of the right – which is undeniably linked to oppression, racism, inequality, slavery, etc. – is now Orwellian in its double speak.

    So-called Libertarians have been linked to the right for 30 years now, and it has gotten them NOTHING. The right is ALWAYS the wrong side of history.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Brian,

    Libertarian Party News Editor Bill Winters said back in 2003, “judging by incoming emails and letters to the editor, fully 40% of the LP membership is Pro-War in Iraq.”

    Now, given that the LP represents maybe only 10 to 20% of the entire libertarian movement, the rest of the movement is a bit more Pro-Defense, I’d say it’s a pretty good guess that our movement is split down the middle on this, and not “2% Boortz Republicans” as you suggest.

    Here’s a few libertarian blogs you can check out to confirm some of this: Yahoo Libertarian Right, Republitarian, and Individual Sovereignty.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    UndercoverAnarchist,

    I believe in the Four Quadrant political spectrum, not the two-dimensional spectrum. Perhaps you’ve heard of it, sometimes called the Nolan Chart, or New Political Spectrum, or World’s Smallest Political Quiz.

    Those groups you mentioned above are not either Liberal or Conservative but rather Authoritarians.

    They are low on economic liberties and low on civil liberties.

    Bin Laden is off the charts Authoritarian; in the Pol Pot category.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Bell is a single-term Congressman who couldn’t even win reelection in the Houston area. If your hometown doesn’t even support you, how can you expect the entire state – most of which is even more hardcore Republican – to go for him.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Yes, Dondero, but Islamic fundamentalism is by definition CONSERVATIVE. Opposition to Communism is by definition LIBERAL. Are you going to tell me that there is any definition by which the Saudi Government is not right-wing? Not unless you are either stupid or dishonest – but then again, I get the impression that you are both.

  • Stuart Richards

    Bell is a single-term Congressman who couldn’t even win reelection in the Houston area. If your hometown doesn’t even support you, how can you expect the entire state – most of which is even more hardcore Republican – to go for him.

    It only takes a plurality?

    Given that Werner can’t win, I hope that Werner does well and either Friedman or Bell takes the office.

  • kcjerith

    I dislike getting caught up in “liberal” and “conseravtive” labels. To begin with they have become “loaded” words which people take to mean a vaetiy of things, and that is my second poiint. Despite people putting so much stock into these labels they don’t mean a dam thing. libertarians straddle tradtional termnology. right vs left, hawk vs dove, liberal vs conserative, these are short cut words which are not worth debating over. Shouldn’t we focus our efforts on what if ethical and what is not ethical, instead of arguing over what we lable people and postions?

  • Brian

    Dondero, your are ridiculous. First, even if we accept your anecdotal statistics based on LTE’s to the LP News in 2003 (which I definately don’t), the majority of Libertarians were against the war. Not to mention that we’ve had three more years to see the outcome of the Iraq War.

    As far as little l libertarians go, they are even more anti-war than the big L libertarians. They are usually not affiliated with the Libertarian Party because they don’t believe in voting or think it’s useless. I realize that you are counting all your Republican buddies as little l’s, though most of them probably don’t even know what a libertarian is.

    “a bit more Pro-Defense”. You mean pro-War? Nothing is being defended. In fact it’s the opposite. I’m less safe and my money is being jacked by the federal government to pay for setting up an Islamic Republic in Iraq and enriching various private companies.

    Regarding the blogs as evidence: for the couple pro-war “libertarian” blogs there are hundred

  • Brian

    s against the war

  • undercover_anarchist

    Pro defense? Buy a gun and defend your land.

    Anything else is agression, and anti-libertarian.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Brian,

    Your assessment is bass ackwards. The libertarian movement includes EVERYONE in the Libertarian Quadrant of the New Political Spectrum. That’s anyone who scores above 66/66. What your are talking about is a tiny minority of a tiny minority of the libertarian movement.

    The extremists you mention are off-the-charts L. Neil Smith/Ernie Hancock/Tom Knapps types at 100/100+, basically Anarchists. That’s maybe 0.5% of the Libertarian Quadrant, or libertarian movement.

    I’d say the Libertarian Party represents maybe about 10 to 15% of the libertarian movement, maybe 20%. But certainly just upper corner.

    RLC, Reason Magazine, Cato Institute, Americans for Tax Reform, Americans for Limited Government, Club for Growth, National Review, Young Republicans, Wall Street Journal et.al. combined represents virtually the other 80 to 85%.

    Then beyond that you even have moderate libertarians like the folks at http://www.gopprogress.com.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Brian, if a great many Libertarian Party members were not Pro-Defense, than why is it that a majority of delegates to the Libertarian National Convention in Portland back in July voted to scrap the Military part of the LP Platform in its entirety?

    Did you think I was not aware of that fact? Most of my friends are hardcore LPers, and they told me about everything that went on there.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Brian says “regarding the Blogs as evidence…”

    Are you fucking kidding me? You’re not serious are you. That was the most idiotic statement I’ve ever heard you say.

    I deal with libertarians every single day of my life. It’s my business. The percentage of libertarians that “blog” is maybe 10% at most. No libertarian I know has ever even heard of Hammer of Truth. A few know of Tom Knapp. Certainly many know of Richard Winger and Ballot Access News (but only from a Newsletter, though technically it’s now also a Blog). Certainly many occasionally log onto to the Libertarian Party’s National site, and the RLC.

    But that’s still a very tiny percentage of libertarian activists.

    Most don’t have time for “blogging”, cause they’re too busy out putting up signs or walking precincts.

    Sometimes I’ll mention the Libertarian Blogs and the various battles that go on here, and their eyes just glaze over.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Furthermore Brian, judging by the libertarian Blogs the movement is at least split down the middle on foreign policy/defense issues maybe even leaning towards my side. If you hang out only at Hammer of Truth and Small Government Blog and Knappster, of course you will get a heavily biased view.

    But check out other libertarian sites like RLC-Discuss, GOP Progress, Neolibertarian, National Review on-line, Club for Growth, Libertarian Reform Caucus, Yahoo Libertarian Right, Yahoo Individual Sovereignty, Yahoo Fight for Liberty, my own Mainstream libertarian, Bureau Crash, Red State, ChuckMuth.com. I could go on and on and on.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Stuart, why would you want a Socialist as Governor of Texas? Chris Bell served on term in the US Congress. During that one term he racked up a Libertarian index score of about 20, well into the Authoritarian area. He’s a Nanny-State from the word go. With a Governor Bell, smoking would be banned statewide, and your guns? Forget about it. He might let you keep a hunting rifle, if you go through the registration process. This guy was awful as a Houston City Councilman, and worse as a Congressman. Look at the record.

    I’d take Sheila Jackson-Lee over Chris Bell. At least Seheila is an honest Authoritarian. Bell is an Authoritarian with a nice smile.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Stuart, of the candidates for Governor, as much as I hate to admit this being a diehard Kinky supporter, it was Carol Keeton-Strayhorn who was most supportive of Libertarian Congressman Ron Paul in all his past elections. Strayhorn came down to the District to campaign with Ron on numerous occasions. In the District she even used the “libertarian” word a couple times to describe her views.

    And she does live up to that. She’s a big anti-tax/pro-gun champion.

    If not Kinky, I’d vote for Carol. And Perry’s not that bad either. He’s good on the issues. Problem is he’s just too damn boring. For that, and for that reason alone, he needs to be defeated in my mind.

  • http://ww.reformthelp.org Nick Wilson

    As juvenile as I find namecalling, Eric, I can’t resist to call you a turdwad. First of all, the LRC is in no way pro-war. The old LP plank had its flaws which was why we tried (unsuccessfully) to replace it with a more comprehensive one but still one centered on pacifism. We generally take a more assertive approach than complete isolationism, realizing the world is more complex than that, but we are not in any way “Liberventionists” who advocate the LP to change into military hawks and declare unconstitutional wars. Secondly, anyone still defending the War in Iraq is an idiot. Thirdly, “The percentage of libertarians that “blog” is maybe 10% at most.” And the % of Libs who send in letters to the editor to LP News is what? 40%? Fourth, Strayhorn is a pure authoritarian. Fifth, any Democrat=socialist authoritarian while any Republican=American hero? Finally, you’re an idiot for wasting your time here. Anyone who supports REAL fascism and politicians who support it is not libertarian.

  • undercover_anarchist

    The vast majority of people who score in the libertarian quadrant don’t vote or vote Democrat. Virtually everyone who votes Republican is a war-mongering thoecratic zealot. WHy else would they vote that way?

    I subscribe to both Reason and the Wall Street Journal (for very different reasons). Although it caters to the right in some articles, Reason is pro-freedom and anti-war. It is particularly pro-immigrant, unlike the racist GOP. The WSJ, on the other hand, is not in any way libertarian. It’s editorial page is pro-capitalist and often makes good economic points – but that doesn’t equal libertarianism. It represents an extremely conservative (i.e. close-minded, non-objective, dogmatic, ANTI-FREEDOM) view… Except on immigration, where it is again pro-free market unlike Dondero’s cherished racist GOP.

    Dondero, I have a paper for you: Investors Business Daly. While the WSJ editorial page is oppressively right wing, IBD is purely fascist. I’m sure you’d love it.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Another question for Dondero: Why does your idol George Bush want to bring LIBERAL DEMOCRACY to the Muslim World? “Liberal democracy” – his words.

    I am 100% pro-western. I believe that my western values are superior to the values of other cultures and I’m proud of my belief in the superiority of my values. My western values are freedom, democracy, liberty, justice, equality, and REASON. These are LIBERAL values which fascists like you hate. Even our president mouths these values while simultaneously doing everything in his power to undermine them. What are conservative values? Unquestioned obedience, state power, dogma, classism, and blind faith. The left represents the interests of the poor and dispossessed; the right represents aristocracy, monarchy, and the moneyed interests. These are not opinions, they are facts. Words have meanings.

  • http://libertyforamerica.net/blog/24 Equal Opportunity Cynic

    Mike Nelson, Seth: Thanks for the RSS tips. I suppose I should have been able to intuit the comments feed URL from Word Press standards.

    If anyone wants an almost readable Web-based version, they can use my “Libertarian” aggregation (which is an “aggreggation” of this one item for now, though that will change as I find other RSS feeds I want to add).

  • TerryP

    UA, While I think Dondero is an idiot as well, you are making some complete misrepresentations of the left as well. “The left represents the interests of the poor” Give me a break. If you call the trillions that we have spent on the war on poverty as representing the poor, you are clueless. Most of that money has gone to the “moneyed interests” that you claim the right represents. The left loves them as well. The left could careless about the poor. They only use them as a tool to get elected and make the poor dependent on gov’t so that they will continue to get their votes. If they cared about the poor they would get gov’t out of the way so that individuals and charities could step in and start doing the job that the gov’t is miserably failing at. If gov’t is involved they should help as many of the poor as possible to become independent, relying more on themselves and their community than on the gov’t. (con’t)

  • TerryP

    If they truly cared about the poor they would be for privatizing social security so they could build wealth with their own money. They would be for programs that are more family friendly. They would stop trying to replace the father in the family with gov’t and stop trying to jail many of those would be fathers for victimless “crimes”. They would be for far less regulation, which would cheapen up many products that they buy and allow the poor and middle class to start businesses that are now out of reach because of gov’t barriers. Prior to the gov’t becoming majorly involved in health care, it was affordable for almost all. Now it is affordable only to the upper middle class and higher. The left has done the poor as well as the middle class no favors in regards to health care. (con’t)

  • TerryP

    The lefts prized public educational system has completely failed the poor as well as the middle class leaving many of the poor unable to function in our society or think for themselves again reinforcing their dependence on gov’t.

    While the republicans are no better on this issue, don’t blind yourself and think that the democrats are any good either. They have both have failed the poor as well as the middle class miserably.

  • http://libertyforamerica.net/blog/24 Equal Opportunity Cynic


    The lefts prized public educational system has completely failed the poor as well as the middle class leaving many of the poor unable to function in our society or think for themselves….

    Actually you bring up an interesting point. There’s a lot of hand-wringing in Democratic circles over the Republicans’ manipulation of lower-class whites to vote against their own economic interests. I have to wonder if, ironically, the public education system has morphed into a tool of Republican domination.

  • Seth

    EOC: let’s talk… Got some ideas you’ll be interested in, I suspect. I’ll email you.

  • http://libertyforamerica.net/blog/24 Equal Opportunity Cynic

    Like not screwing up my >i< and >blockquote< tags? :)

  • http://ww.reformthelp.org Nick Wilson

    Right, of course the Left has failed at helping the poor. But I would argue that most leftists (establishment leftists aside) do care strongly about these issues. They do hate corporations, they want to end war, they want to help the poor, workers and the environment. They are just stuck in a space-time continuum where the only solution they see (as well as the only option they really have to vote for) is socialism.

    I think the same can be said, less strongly, for the (non-establishment) Right – they want to be safe, they generally don’t like big government and high taxes and genuinely care about the state’s impact of family values. But they are stuck where a militarist, big government, authoritarian party is the only option claiming similar values.

    That’s why there’s tons of ground for new pro-freedom and social justice, anti-corporate, reformist, progressive, small government party. Libertarians must reclaim liberalism from socialism, and conservatism from fascism.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    “Libertarians must reclaim liberalism from socialism, and conservatism from fascism.”

    Nick, that’s one of the best quotes I’ve heard in quite awhile. And I think that’s precisely what needs to happen if the LP is ever going to become a force to be reckoned with on the ballot.

  • Seth

    Nick, while that’s a true quote, the hard part is realizing that the liberals don’t see themselves as socialists or anything wrong with it if they do, nor do the conseratives consider themselves as fascists (quite the opposite, the fascists are the opposition), and calling either side those names moves people farther from the intended goal.

    This is why Macho flash doesn’t and hasn’t worked, this is why the LP hasn’t been elected much, and most of all, this is why despite Libertarians being for ‘both kinds’ of freedom, we’re seen as some weird out of place group: they don’t see us in the middle between these two factions, they see us as fringes on the outside of both (mostly right-side). It’s time to reclaim the middle, and with it, a majority voice.

  • undercover_anarchist

    TerryP: My bad. I mispoke. “The left IDENTIFIES with the interests of the poor” is what I should have said. If you have read my posts on this blog, you know that I am a strong anti-statist. Coercive government programs to correct inequities almost inevitably have the reverse of the anticipated outcome. CNN just ran an article about the last housing project being demolished in Chicago. The government CREATED the ghetto.

    I agree with Jack Cashin. The libertarian philosophy is neither left nor right, it’s in the center. BUT… The mainstream is so far right, that honest libertarianism is left by default.

    “Liberalism” – even at its worst, is a centrist philosophy, with socialism on the left, and conservatism on the right. Democrats are niether liberal nor leftist by any legitimate definition other than the fact that they are more liberal and to the left of the GOP.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    So you believe we libertarians are aligned with Leftists who disagree with us on everything with the sole exception of Pro-Choice on abortion and Terry Schiavo, huh?

    I can’t think of another single issue where I agree with Leftists on. Certainly not affirmative action, political correctness, gun rights, seat belt laws, smoking bans, blocking libertarian petitioners from gathering signatures for their initiatives, property rights/against eminent domain, spending limits, rights to access for hunters and anglers, or recreational off-road vehicles access.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Seth, the political spectrum has shifted dramatically. Today it’s the liberals who are the fascists.

    Who is it that’s pushing the smoking bans all over the Nation? Even in Alaska, where the Libertarian Party is bravely leading the effort against the Fascist Liberal onslaught to outlaw smoking in all bars and restaurants in Anchorage.

    Who is it that’s blocking our libertarian petitioners from Montana to Missouri for our ballot measures for property rights and spending limits? And when they get beaten back by our brave libertarian petitioners, they switch to getting us thrown off the ballot in the courts.

    Who is it that’s harrassing, protesting and yelling and screaming at Jenn Gratz and the folks working to end Affirmative Action laws in Michigan and other states? The Liberal Fascists at ACORN.

    Who is it that’s pushing to deny hunters and anglers rights to access all over rural America? Liberal Fascist gun grabbers who hate the rural lifestyle.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    The quote should read:

    “Libertarians must work to reclaim liberalism from fascism, and conservatism from centrist squishy moderation.”

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Yes, I like Investor’s Business Daily as well.

    Curiously, you state that the Wall Street Journal is “not libertarian” in any manner, shape or form.

    That’s odd, considering diehard Ron Paulist, a guy who used to work for Ron, a guy who calls himself a “libertarian,” and who is close friends with Paul Jacob, Howie Rich and Americans for Limited Government – John Fund – is their lead Editorialist.

    Oh, and did you forget about Cato-ite Stephen Moore, and self-described “libertarian” economist Larry Kudlow?

    And Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell are also frequent WSJ contributors.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    If there is any one single publication that could be considered the “heart and soul of the libertarian movement” it is without a doubt the Wall Street Journal.

    Question for ya? What was the only major media that covered the Republican Liberty Caucus National Convention in Orlando last month?

    Answer: The Wall Street Journal.

    Which national publication has given more coverage to libertarians, Ron Paul, and the entire libertarian movement in the last few decades per capita than any other?

    Answer: The Wall Street Journal.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Nick,

    You call Carole Keeton-Strayhorn an “Authoritarian.” How does that explain the fact that she was the very second person, behind Kay Baily Hutchison, immediately following the GOP primary to call Ron Paul, congratulate him, and offer her support for his Congressional Campaign?

    She came into the District and campaigned her “rotund” ass off for Ron Paul.

    Guess she was an “Authoritarian for Ron” huh?

  • TerryP

    Nick,

    You are exactly right the LP has a gapping wide hole that we can fill because the leadership of both the R and the D are so out of touch with the people they purportedly represent. If you look at the Nolan chart almost all of our rep. both R and D are in the authoritarian half of the chart. My guess is that most people are a bit higher on freedom than their representatitves and ripe for the taking if we can put out a rational, moderate agenda.

    The real answer for the poor is much less gov’t not more and the only party that is pushing for that is the LP party. There is no reason why we can’t take the “poor” card from the democrats as we are really the only ones with solutions. It is obvious that the R party has failed us in regards to economic issues so that is another area that is ripe for the taking. Both parties have failed in personal rights issues. We have a tremendous opportunity to fill a gaping hole in the political spectrum if we can work together.

  • Trying to fix the blockquote
  • Trying to fix the blockquote
  • http://www.ReformTheLP.org Trying to fix the blockquote

    Let’s just ignore Eric and hope he goes away.

    We’re wasting our time trying to be reasonable with someone who was “proud” to vote for “fellow Texan George Bush”; who sees individual Republicans as libertarian because they are forever trapped in his mind at whatever ideal point of space and time they said something or did something somewhat libertarian, regardless of the reality; who ignores the fact that his own party is advocating fascism by definition (not the Democrats, so much – “smoking bans” go hand in hand with socialized healthcare, not corporate-gov’t melding.); who thinks libertarian = “conservative assholes who like sex;” who continues to defend a war that has lost any specter of credibility and who lives in constant fear of some mythical “rising tide of Islamo-Fascism;” and who aligns himself ideologically to Ted Nugent, who wishes we would “Nagasaki” the Middle East.

    Look, I’m probably one of the most moderate libertarians in the LRC, but this is just f—ing unacceptable.

  • http://www.ReformTheLP.org Nick Wilson

    Sorry, that was me.

  • TerryP

    If you look at the top half of the Nolan chart (the libertatian half) it forms a triangle. Our problem as a party is that each corner of the triangle is what gets the most play in the media and is where many activists on each side want to pull us. While people such as UA and Paulie are not likely in the far left corner, they have a way of trying to pull the party in that direction. People like Dondero is much closer to the far right hand corner and he is trying to pull the party to that corner. Then there are the people at the top of the triangle such as possibly Badnarik that are trying to pull us that way. By going to each of those extremes we will not ever be a viable party. We need to court all those people that fall within the triangle but not at the extremes with a message near the center of that triangle. We cannot get pulled to far to any corner or we will be unable to form a viable freedom loving coalition that can overcome the authoritarian left/right.

  • Seth

    TerryP: Amen. Some of us have been saying for a while. Like him or not, Carl Milsted’s quiz2d.com data shows conclusively that you are correct, and the key to having 30%+ of the votes (a minimum to win and be respected) is going to take avoiding the edge positions and staying toward the middle ground, providing a ‘libertarian moderate’ message. This, sadly, pisses of the extremes of all flavors, and they call the moderate view ‘unprincipled’ or ‘faux libertarian’ etc. I wish they’d wake up.

    Post Nov 7th, expect to more from me on this. For now, back to working on websites for major candidates…

  • http://libertyforamerica.net/blog/24 Equal Opportunity Cynic

    As I mentioned on some thread or other, I think you can finesse these issues somewhat without selling out. A candidate can recognize that (pick one: abolishing public schools, abolishing income tax, abolishing Social Security, etc.) is political or fiscal suicide and still hold that this might be a long-term, decades-long goal. If communicated well, it could make that candidate look far more realistic and pragmatic than the ideologues presently running Washington.

    That said, I’m probably only 70-80% libertarian and I certainly agree you can’t have a viable political party by running people like me out.

  • Andy

    “Libertarians on Economics – 100% Right Wing”

    It depends on which part of the so called “right wing” you are talking about.

  • Andy

    “Though, we are worried about the costs of War, and are less supportive than Conservatives about paying for Iraq and Afghanistan.”

    I’m not just concerned with the cost of the war, I believe that it is based on lies and is an immoral and illegal war of aggression.

  • Andy

    “A survey by LP Director Bill Winters, for example, showed that fully ‘40% of LP members supported the War in Iraq.'”

    I’m not sure how recent or how accurate that survey is, but I will say that pro-war “libertarians” are holding the movement back. There is a HUGE anti-war sentiment out there on which the Libertarian Party should be capitalizing. Pro-war so called “libertarians” turn a lot of these people off. War is the health of the state and war of aggression based on lies have nothing to do with liberty.

  • Andy

    “RLC, Reason Magazine, Cato Institute, Americans for Tax Reform, Americans for Limited Government, Club for Growth, National Review, Young Republicans, Wall Street Journal et.al. combined represents virtually the other 80 to 85%.”

    The Young Republicans that I’ve encountered have more in common with the Hitler Youth than they do with libertarianism.

  • Andy

    “Most don’t have time for “blogging”, cause they’re too busy out putting up signs or walking precincts.”

    Most aren’t out walking precincts or doing any kind of activism, they are too busy sitting on their asses and talking amongst themselves.

  • Andy

    “It is particularly pro-immigrant, unlike the racist GOP.”

    Actually, the people who control the GOP are in favor of mass immigration, despite any occassional rehtoric to the contrary.

  • Andy

    The so called “Islamofascists” have a lot in common with the so called “religious right” in this country.

  • Andy

    “And you say, ‘Drugs are split these days, with some conservatives supporting it and some liberals supporting it. ‘

    which is obviously BS.”

    Almost every person that I’ve ever met who calls themselves a Republican or a conservative is in favor of the war on drugs. Many of them will not even support medical marijauna.

  • paulie

    If you look at the top half of the Nolan chart (the libertatian half) it forms a triangle. Our problem as a party is that each corner of the triangle is what gets the most play in the media and is where many activists on each side want to pull us. While people such as UA and Paulie are not likely in the far left corner, they have a way of trying to pull the party in that direction.

    I score 100/100 on the Nolan quiz, and have since 1993, when I finally read enough economics to get an accurate understanding of the minimum wage issue. In 1992, I scored 100/80, which was good enough to vote Libertarian but not enough to join the party. I took the pledge seriously and did not join until I could sign it in good faith.

    As far as pulling us in that direction, you’re right; that’s where we’ve always been and must return to ever amount to anything. The temporary coalition between conservatism and libertarianism was an aberration of the 20th century.

    http://mises.org/story/2099

  • paulie

    People like Dondero is much closer to the far right hand corner and he is trying to pull the party to that corner. Then there are the people at the top of the triangle such as possibly Badnarik that are trying to pull us that way.

    Actually, I would put Badnarik on the right side of the triangle, and Dondero completely outside of it.

    By going to each of those extremes we will not ever be a viable party.

    We would be a lot more viable by reclaiming our historic ties with the left.

    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2333

    Right now, there are a ton of people who are politically homeless because they are pro-immigration and anti-war, and are not being served by the corporate parties.

    Their only alternative is non-voting, selling out to the Democrats, or voting for the Greens who, due to a poor understanding of economics, would ultimately hurt the goals they are trying to achieve – but at least they have the right goals.

  • Andy

    “Right now, there are a ton of people who are politically homeless because they are pro-immigration and anti-war, and are not being served by the corporate parties.”

    The corporate parties ARE pro-immigration! They want more voters, more welfare recipients, more cheap labor, and more bodies to join the military. The merger with Mexico and Canada is the next step towards the New World Order.

  • Andy

    There is a merger taking placing between the USA, Mexico, and Canada. We are being moved into a North American Union that will be similiar to the European Union. This is the next step towards global government. When it comes to politicians, remember to follow their actions and not their words.

    Illegal aliens and the secret super highway
    http://www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/illegal_aliens_and_monster_highway.htm

  • paulie

    If they are pro-immigration then why are they throwing more money at border enforcement and scrambling who can deport more immigrants, punish employers, etc?

    What they want is the Real ID, which is being sold as an anti-immigration idea, and RFID equipped passports which will be required for travel to Mexico and Canada by 2008, thus qualifying the US for the technical definition of one giant prison.

    Authoritarians love border checkpoints – the more the better. Fears of immigration, just like fears of drugs and terrorism, are just excuses they use to exploit to get the public to give them more powers to spy on people, round people up, put people in cages, harass people, etc.

    The whole idea is based on the government holding collective property over the whole country, an anti-liberty concept.

    Meanwhile, the fastest growing voting population (Latinos) are saying in surveys that neither major party is speaking up for immigrants’ rights and they want to become more active.

  • paulie

    Yes, I’m following their actions, such as increased harassment and roundups, REAL ID and so forth.

  • Andy

    “If they are pro-immigration then why are they throwing more money at border enforcement and scrambling who can deport more immigrants, punish employers, etc?

    What they want is the Real ID, which is being sold as an anti-immigration idea, and RFID equipped passports which will be required for travel to Mexico and Canada by 2008, thus qualifying the US for the technical definition of one giant prison.”

    It’s all an act. They want more immigrants to come here and in fact give them the incentives to come while at the same time pretending to fight it.

    This is classic problem-reaction-solution. The government created the problem. Now millions of Americans are pissed off because of all of the illegal aliens. So now the government offers the solution of issueing National ID cards – which will lead to implantable microchips – meanwhile they are working on deals to merge the USA with Mexico and Canada in a North American Union. Brilliant scheme!

  • Andy

    “Meanwhile, the fastest growing voting population (Latinos) are saying in surveys that neither major party is speaking up for immigrants’ rights and they want to become more active.”

    They need this voting block to support their plan for a North American Union. Why do you think that a Bush linked PR firm and Marxist organizers were involved in those big protest marches? Just wait until the race riots come. Will provide the perfect excuse for Martial Law!

    I’ve got to hand it to these globalists, they may be evil but they sure are clever.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Andy.. Was it hard to get fitted for your tinfoil hat?

    I support the right of citizens of NAFTA countries to travel among them without visas. Does that make me an NWO advocate? I am for a NWO. One with no state. Is that essentially the same as a super state?

    Dondero: Members of the left support open immigration, gay rights and marriage, they’re against the Patriot Act and domestic spying, they’re agianst church-state union, they’re against war-mongering military adventurism (unlike you and your fasicst allies), etc., which are all libertarian positions. Many support Democratic / soft-socialism economic policies because they’re ignorant to the alternatives. And furthermore, even the organized left is NOT in favor of emminent domain abuse. You’re wrong there.

    Also, I’m convinced that the anti-gun left is by and large a myth. It is Rosie O’Donnel and a bunch of suburban soccer moms. Other than that, most people don’t give a fuck if you have a gun, so long as it you use it responsibly.

  • Andy

    “Andy.. Was it hard to get fitted for your tinfoil hat?

    I support the right of citizens of NAFTA countries to travel among them without visas. Does that make me an NWO advocate? I am for a NWO. One with no state. Is that essentially the same as a super state?”

    Ah, the old tin foil hat comment. Used to discredit people who talk about things that aren’t considered to be “mainstream” without having to do any research to discredit the things that are brought up. Is that the best you can do?

    I do not support NAFTA, GATT, the WTO, CAFTA, or the FTAA because they are not really about free trade but rather government managed trade, corporate welfare, and global government.

    I doubt that you are an NWO advocate, but you are naively playing into their hands, at least some of the time.

    A world with no state is far removed from a world with one state. At this moment, who has more influence, people who want one world government or people who want no government?

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Andy, the Republican Liberty Caucus has been doing the Operation Politically Homeless Quiz at countless Young Republican Conventions over the last decade or so. You can check this all with Sharon Harris of the Advocates for Self-Government.

    During that time, YRs have consistently scored in the Libertarian Quadrant of the WSPQ. They average around 70/70.

    Interestingly, their axis seems to be more Libertarian to Centrist rather than Libertarian to Conservative.

  • Andy

    “Also, I’m convinced that the anti-gun left is by and large a myth. It is Rosie O’Donnel and a bunch of suburban soccer moms. Other than that, most people don’t give a fuck if you have a gun, so long as it you use it responsibly.”

    Unfortunately, the anti-gun left is not a myth. I’ve encountered PLENTY of leftists who are vehemently anti-gun rights. Sure, not everyone on the left is completely anti-gun rights, there are always exceptions, but that doesn’t make the anti-gun rights left a myth.

    Saying that all Republicans are for gun rights IS a myth. Republicans have an image of being pro-gun rights and some of them really are, however, a disturbing number of Republicans are not really in favor of gun rights. For instance, Senator Rick Santorum or Pennsylvania and Senator John McCain are both given ZERO ratings by Gun Owners Of America. The “conservative” hero Ronald Reagan signed gun control bills as did George HW Bush.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Paulie, you say I am “pulling the libertarian movement to the conservative right”?

    Really? How does that explain that I’m very Pro-Choice on abortion? I’m a rock ‘n rolling Heavy Metal/Punk Rock dude. I like my music, fast, hard and loud. I favor drug legalization. I’m very, very, very much in favor of every sexual freedom you can imagine, so long as it doesn’t involve minors or scare the horses. One of my biggest issues is Swinger’s rights, and pushing for more topless and nude beaches in the US. I also hate prohibitionists and battle them on every issue you can think of: smoking bans, drinking age laws, you name it.

    Is that conservative?

  • Andy

    “Andy, the Republican Liberty Caucus has been doing the Operation Politically Homeless Quiz at countless Young Republican Conventions over the last decade or so. You can check this all with Sharon Harris of the Advocates for Self-Government.”

    This may be true but I’m just saying that many of the Young Republicans that I’ve encountered on college campuses have more in common with the Hitler Youth than they do with Libertarians.

    I know of cases where Young Republicans tried to have people who were engaging in free speech on college campuses arrested.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Who is the Number One Gun Grabber politician in the United States?

    Chuck Schumer, of course.

    And what Party affiliation does he hold?

    Democrat, of course.

    It was Senate Republicans who battled Schumer on all his idiotic gun banning crusades over the years.

    You’re so pigheaded that you can’t even give them credit for that?

  • paulie

    Paulie, you say I am “pulling the libertarian movement to the conservative right”?

    I was actually quoting that statement. I don’t really think you are pulling the libertarian movement that much, although you are a “celebrity in your own mind” I don’t see that much correlation between your mind and reality.

    Yes, you do have some issues on which you agree with libertarians, but I wouldn’t actually classify you as one, since you clearly don’t agree with the non-initiation of coercion principle.

    Furthermore, you consider your warmongering views to be more important than all the pro-liberty views you hold put together, as can be seen from comment #1 here:

    http://www.smallgov.org/?p=355#comments

    Thus, you actively vote and campaign for the fascist Republicans and somehow try to connect them with liberty.

    That’s WORSE than conservative.

  • Andy

    “Who is the Number One Gun Grabber politician in the United States?

    Chuck Schumer, of course.

    And what Party affiliation does he hold?

    Democrat, of course.

    It was Senate Republicans who battled Schumer on all his idiotic gun banning crusades over the years.

    You’re so pigheaded that you can’t even give them credit for that?”

    I NEVER said that I like Chuckie Schumer or the Democratic Party in general. In fact, I despise them. Yes, Republicans have blocked some of their crappy bills, but Republicans have passed plenty of garbage themselves and sometimes a bad Republican bill gets blocked by Democrats.

    I don’t like to get involved in this “Who’s the lesser of two evils between Democrats and Republicans” game because I see it as counterproductive. Both of these parties SUCK!

  • paulie

    Rapepubliccons are more effective than Democrats in passing gun control (victim disarmament). If they were solidly against it, it would never pass – so it only passes when they are for it.

    It’s one of the many issues they sell out on a regular basis.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Andy: You are a square peg. You seem like a Constitution Party type with your anti-immigrant rants, but then you turn around and villafy the religious right. You are clearly opposed to state power. So how can you empower the state with the ability to decide which human beings may cross imaginary lines? If you don’t want people coming here for welfare, then concentrate on ending welfare. Don’t concentrate on telling me who I can hire to work for my business. Don’t concentrate on empowering the state to prevent free human beings to seek a better life, to market their labor, to provide for their children. In doing so, YOU are playing into the statist’s hands.

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  • Andy

    “Andy: You are a square peg. You seem like a Constitution Party type with your anti-immigrant rants, but then you turn around and villafy the religious right. You are clearly opposed to state power. So how can you empower the state with the ability to decide which human beings may cross imaginary lines?”

    I don’t really believe that the state should say who goes where. Unfortunately, we are currently stuck with a system where the state controls most of the land. Ultimately, I would like to see a system where control of land is back in the hands of individuals or various groups of individuals. At that point everyone could set their own immigration policies for their area.

  • Andy

    “If you don’t want people coming here for welfare, then concentrate on ending welfare.”

    I’ve been working on trying to end the welfare state for over 10 years now. Are we any closer? It doesn’t appear that way.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    One government violation of rights does not excuse another.

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  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Paulie, that stupid-ass Non-initiative of force cult like pledge is for Anarchists NOT libertarians.

    Question for ya, Paulie. Are all libertarians anarchists?

    Is there any difference between libertarianism and anarchism?

    If so, then being an Anarchist you must admit that libertarians are more moderate and mainstream than you are, and that you ONLY represent the tiny fringe of an already tiny fringe of the broader libertarian movement.

    If everyone who scores over 66/66 on the WSPQ is considered to be a “Libertarian” than YOU MUST acknowledge everyone else in the movement who scores less than you as a libertarian; that’s from 99/99 all the way down to near Centrist area of 66/66.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Dondero thinks it is acceptable to use the state’s guns and thugs to enforce his view of the world. This makes him no different than the socialist Greens and authoritarian Democrats he claims to despise.

    “Hey! Everyone should have health care. We believe in non-violence. But… We will use George Bush’s shock troops to collect taxes to pay for our health care. There is no violation of principals here.”

    This is the Green’s great “non-violent” philosophy.

    Dondero’s way of thinking is more like.. “Hey! I hate Mexicans and Muslims. Let’s kill them!”

    I’ll give him credit for being a little more honest than the authoritarian, pro-violence Greens (of which I am still technically a member). But is he a libertarian? I’ll give him this. He’s just as libertarian as some of his idols: Mark Foley (remember how Dondy initially defended him?), Joe “Zionist Taliban” Lieberman, George Bush, Katherine Harris, Rick “stone the sodomites” Jore, etc.

  • Andy

    “Question for ya, Paulie. Are all libertarians anarchists?

    Is there any difference between libertarianism and anarchism?”

    Ah, the old libertarian anarchy vs. minarchy debate.

    I think that a person can be an anarchist or a minarchist and still be a libertarian.

    An anarchist is a purist. A minarchist can believe in a high degree of freedom on all issues but does not believe that it is possible to have no government.

    I’m kind of a whichever-we-can-get-archist. Philisophically, I’m an anarchist, but I don’t know whether or not we will ever achieve this. If we can achieve this than great, but if not than minarchy is the next best thing. I believe that government as it exsists should obey the Constitution, but I do not consider the Constitution to be the be all and end all. Freedom goes further than what the Constitution has to offer, but on the other hand what the Constitution has to offer is a lot better than what we have now.

  • Andy

    I like what Harry Browne had to say on this subject.

    http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/SmallGovernment.htm

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Very good article, Andy.

    I pretty much agree with moderate LPers and the reformers, politically. I don’t think it is wrong for me as an individual to debate intricasies online and to be an extremist, while simultaneously being pragmatic. But one thing I do resent is the appeals to the right. We’ve been down that road. It leads nowhere. There’s a difference between being a moderate, and being Republican light. Some fail to see that difference.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    I’m enjoying the Harry Browne articles.

    “Every government program, in the final analysis, involves violence against those who don’t comply.”

    From: http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/WhyYoureALibertariam.htm

    This realization is what made me a libertarian. Well-meaning leftists can be confronted with this, and in time, honest ones will come to our side. But they need to be welcomed with open arms.

  • Andy

    “But one thing I do resent is the appeals to the right. We’ve been down that road. It leads nowhere.”

    Libertarians should reach out to the left, right, and center, and especially to non-voters.

    I agree that a lot more focus should be on marketing to people on the left, however, I would not completely abandon those on the right because there are still potential converts there.

    “I’m enjoying the Harry Browne articles.”

    Harry Browne was one of the best writers and speakers that the Libertarian Party had. His death was a great loss to the movement.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    Question for ya, Paulie. Are all libertarians anarchists?

    It depends on how liberally we define “libertarian”. Very strictly speaking, yes, since those who are not anarchists are not fully libertarian. However, I would say that true minarchists are close enough to grant being called libertarian, if that’s what they want. However, there are also numerous people who claim to be “libertarians,” yet are not even close.

    Is there any difference between libertarianism and anarchism?

    Not all anarchists are libertarians.

    Now a question for you: do you cosider any anarchists to be libertarian, or do you consider the terms mutually exclusive?

    If everyone who scores over 66/66 on the WSPQ is considered to be a “Libertarian”

    I think this is a major error that results from relying too much on the quiz. Anyone who scores that way is closer to libertarian than any other political tendency, but it does not actually make them a libertarian.

  • Darcy Richardson

    “Harry Browne was one of the best writers and speakers that the Libertarian Party had. His death was a great loss to the movement.” — Andy.

    Truer words were never spoken. The avuncular and white-haired Browne was an urbane, witty and dignified man who looked and spoke like a man who should have occupied the White House. He was also smart. His acceptance speech in 1996 was one of the best in the annals of third-party history and I’ve long considered my vote for him that year as one of the proudest votes I ever cast. I remember seeing him in the lobby of the Marriott Marquis Hotel in Atlanta during the Libertarian Party’s 2004 national convention and privately wishing at the time that he was running again. He gave the party stature — and class. I’m convinced that if the crazy billionaire from Texas hadn’t run again in 1996, Browne would have easily captured more than a million votes.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Wow, Darcy is a TRUE third-party revolutionary! He voted for Harry Browne in 1996 and Walt Brown in 2004!!! Way to have a truly open mind.

  • Darcy Richardson

    If the party had nominated a savvy candidate with even a shred of credentials, I probably would have voted for the LP’s presidential nominee in 2004. I liked Gary Nolan and probably would have supported him.

    When I interviewed Nolan for a magazine article prior to the Atlanta convention, he told me, with a slightly mischievous grin, that he would consider his candidacy a success if he drew enough conservative votes away from the GOP to deny President Bush a second term, adding that such a scenario would create “gridlock,” thereby preventing either party from engaging in profligate and wasteful spending. He had the right idea. Playing a role in Bush’s defeat, he said, would also “allow the cream to rise to the top,” placing the media spotlight squarely on the Libertarian Party — instead of Nader — for influencing the outcome of the election.

    But instead, the Libertarians foolishly chose an obscure guy who struck me at the time as just another right-wing Republican.

  • undercover_anarchist

    It’s interesting you hold that opinion, Mr. Richardson. Badnarik is very conservative in demeanor, but he’s pro-GLBT, for example. He also has a weird meditation fetish and seems to get along very well with liberals (hence his relationship with David Cobb). Nolan, on the other hand, was basically a Republican from my understanding. A “recovering” Republican with principals, etc., I’m not trying to discredit him, but I’m just surprised that you liked him.

    And I’m further perplexed by the fact you didn’t support Nader. I read your essay at Counterpunch laying out Walt Brown’s staggering list of credentials – very surprising, very impressive. I saw him debate once, and he was pretty damn bad, though. You say Nader is “one of the last honest men in poltiics” but you wanted nothing to do with him in 2004. I find this surprising. After all, he was the strongest voice against the two-party duopoly, which I know you disdain.

  • Darcy Richardson

    Why the LP nominated a completely unknown candidate who had only raised $8,000 prior to the party’s 2004 convention, remains something of a mystery. Something for the history books, I suppose. All I know is that Karl Rove was certainly happy. Of course, the dumbstruck Badnarik, taking full advantage of his sudden and unexpected fame as the party’s accidental presidential standard-bearer two years ago, has milked the Libertarians for all they’re worth ever since. We’ll see the results on November 7th.

    In the meantime, the LP should abandon its conservative counterfeits and become a real player on the national scene. And that entails, as you, Paulie and many others HoT bloggers have eloquently advocated, reaching out to those in the middle and on the left, to the millions of Americans hungry for real political change.

  • Darcy Richardson

    U_A, I think there must be some sort of misunderstanding. I was very supportive of Ralph Nader in 2004. In fact, I appeared on more than 15 radio talk shows and in other venues defending his candidacy and criticizing Democratic Party attempts to keep him off the ballot in various states. http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0921-08.htm.

    I also personally contributed to Ralph’s campaign that year, as I did four years earlier, when I gave $750. I supported my friend Walt Brown in 2004 largely because he called me and asked me to be one of his electors in Florida. He and his wife stayed at my home in Jacksonville during the last week of the campaign. I certainly would have done the same for Ralph Nader, whom I consider one of the greatest men in public life today.

  • Darcy Richardson

    You’re right, too, about Walt’s appearance at the debate at Cornell University which was aired by C-SPAN. I told him the same thing. He rambled too much. Fortunately, he did much better in his one-on-one interview on C-SPAN a few days before the election. But, hey, give the guy a break — he was 79 years old, suffering from back cancer and was pretty tired by that point in the campaign.

  • Darcy Richardson

    U_A, you’ve always been one of my favorite bloggers, but I think Badnarik is more than just “very conservative in demeanor.” Did you see his website before he unexpectedly captured the party’s nomination in 2004? He’s from the fever swamp of the berserk right. Here’s an example:

    http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2004_08/bradford-dark_horse.html

  • Darcy Richardson

    U_A. I had to run some errands, but I’m back now. I hope you took my comments in the spirit they were intended. I look at young guys like yourself, Paulie, Nick Wilson, Derrick and others on the HoT website as the last best hope for this country. Maybe you can shape the LP into the party this country so desperately needs.

    Your concerns were certainly valid. I admire Ralph Nader with ever fibre of my being — and if I had a magic wand… By the way, some of the radio interviews I did in 2004, especially the Thom Hartmann Show and a few other “liberal” hosts, were particularly brutal. It was as though Ralph had no right to run.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Hmmm… I’m a bit mystified as to how I could have possibly taken your comments in any sort of negative light, but oh well.

    I just assumed that you didn’t support Nader’s candidacy since I read the article about Brown on Counter Punch and voted for Browne in ’96 (when I know Ralph wasn’t REALLY running, but..)

    As for Badnarik – I remember. Blow up the UN and the Fed, force prisoners into atrophy. I guess it depends on your definition of “right.” Right-wing? Yeah, I guess so. Nutty, definitely! Republicanesque? Not that I can see. More of a pro-gay, moderately pro-immigration CP member (if that isn’t a total oxymoron).

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Darcy, you are actually on to something. Some did speculate Karl Rove was behind Badnarik’s nomination in 2004 for the LP. After all, Karl is from Texas, Austin area – same as Badnarik, and knows TX politics like the back of his hand.

    I’ve often wondered the same about David Bergland in 1984. Bergland was arguably the very worst Presidential candidate ever run by the LP. He only got 228,000 votes in a race where the Republican Ronald Reagan was a shoe-in. How is it that he could have failed so miserably? An accident? I’m not so sure.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Andy, you just mispoke big time! You said, “many Young Republicans I’ve encountered on college campuses…”

    Andy, that’s COLLEGE REPUBLICANS NOT YOUNG REPUBLICANS!!!

    Huge difference. Nobody in the GOP takes CRs seriously at all. Yes, they tend to be authoritarian nutjobs on the campuses. But the YRs are completely different. A YR is aged 25 to 40.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Undercover Anarchist, that was uncalled for. Where in the bloody hell did you ever get the idea that I “hate Mexicans?”

    I’m asking you nicely for a retraction here. If not, I will notify the List owners.

    1. I am completely fluent in Spanish, and have even written a best selling book on the matter, “Vacation Spanish.”

    2. I have been all over Mexico; at least 12 different Mexican states from Veracruz all the way up to Baja.

    3. I’ve taught ESL all over Mexico including Tampico and Guadalajara.

    4. I’ve had tons of Mexican girlfriends in my life in just about every Mexican city you could name.

    5. I’m a huge fan of Mexican music: Tejano to Ann Barbara-style pop. (Though, I don’t like Norteno).

    6. I drink Mexican beer all the time.

    7. I live in Houston which is half-Mexican.

    8. I think we need MORE MEXICAN WORKERS IN THE US!!! Not less.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Andy, the Libertarian Party has been trying to reach out to the Left for decades.

    What in the hell do you think the David Bergland Libertarian Campaign for President in 1984 was all about??? Bergland was leader of the far-left LP wing.

    He failed miserably. In fact, worst LP Presidential showing ever – 228,000 votes.

    Just this morning Yahoo News had an article about Texas CD-22. Mentioned Hyphen lady, and glorified Democrat Nick Lampson. Not a single mention of Libertarian Bob Smither.

    That’s your Liberals for you. They hate Libertarians so much that they completely ignore Libertarian candidates like Bob Smither who is polling 24% over 11% for Hyphen lady.

    Liberals nationwide have blocked our libertarian petitions this year from Missouri to Montana.

    And these are the people you want us to align with?

    Are you friggin’ nuts???? They’re the enemy!!!

  • undercover_anarchist

    Notify the List owners? What the hell does that mean?

    Don’t be such a pussy. You always had a good attitude about my viscious insults before. Fine. I take it back. Feel better? Don’t sue me, Mr. Hacker.

    And would you PLEASE look up “liberal” in the dictionary and stop misusing the word. Please???

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Thank you. I accept your apology.

    I’m not a puss. Valid viciously worded attacks on me are welcome. Cuss me out if you so desire. Invalid attacks that have no basis in reality are not.

    And why are you such a pussy about meeting me here in Michigan? I’m leaving in a few days, heading back to Sunny Texas. Dude, let’s have some coffee or beers. I’m in Macomb County. Unless you’re in the UP or Muskeogen, you have no excuse. Call me! 979-799-7077