TerrorStorm Premier

My good friend and fellow libertarian chic, Elle, asked me to attend the Dallas premier of Alex Jones’ movie, “TerrorStorm” this past Saturday. I accepted. I am not a listener of Alex Jones, but had visited his Infowars site after my father told me of it. (I should mention that my father is not the man described in my bio, but he and I are quite close now that I am an adult.)

Elle and I arrived early and went to The Balcony for a drink. We had barely finished our drinks when we decided to go downstairs to enter the theater. I was blown away by the line waiting to enter. It was a very long line of people that fit into no certain camp. There were young professionals next to hippie types. There were old people talking to younger people. Republicans, Independents, Democrats and, of course, Libertarians. Most of us were Americans; all of us were hoping to glean some sort of truth from the chaos which seemed to have started on September 11, 2001.

Conspiracy theories are in fashion today, so please pardon me as I put on my Prada tin foil hat and officially jump on board. I am a “nut job” who believes that 9/11 was an inside job. I believe that the media barrage of unsubstantiated bullshit is purposeful in design. From the Miami 7 to the Michigan 3 to the Heathrow, what was it? Um, 17, 21? To the many recently diverted flights and biometric scanners at Knoxville- there is purposeful intent to intimidate people to disregard freedom in favor of state control. But, I knew and said that before Saturday.

Even with the slams I am sure to take for it, I am happy to proclaim “TerrorStorm” a well delivered message for our time. I encourage all of you to see it, buy it, and share it. I found it mostly historically factual. (Mostly only because I have not checked every single detail.) And, I am sorry to say, I have always mostly agreed with Rick Rajter on this issue, and did not speak up. Oh, I spouted off to friends, but it took me a while to get used to the “crazy” description. It took me some time, some books, and the review of hours worth of 9/11 footage to make this public. It took report after report of bullshit to remove the last of my blinders.

Orwell’s “1984″ is here- though 22 years late. Everyone is a potential terrorist. We were always at war. Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act.

Thank God for revolutions. May a revolution of thought rain/reign (you pick the usage) on us now.

posted by michelleshinghal
  • Devious David

    Well said. When you come understand much of what is on the periphery, things come into focus in ways you had never previously imagined or expected.

  • http://www.titaniumgirl.blogspot.com elle

    What can I say, excellent post! Thank you so much for going with me!

  • getreal

    The libertarian movement is not growing up but going insane. After several decades of activism I’m not going to be involved. The asylum is being run by the inmates. Of course Jones, a believer in occult secret conspiracies, the New World Order, Illuminati like bullshit and such is considered a reliable source of information. Meanwhile the sanity of liberty is being lost because it’s defenders are certifiable lunatics.

  • Rick Rajter

    MIchelle,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    While I think Jones sometimes goes over the top on his movies (trying to be over dramatic to get people all riled up), I would say that I am in agreement with many of the facts presented in his work.

    And people like “getreal” must realize that this isn’t not a libertarian issue (as no political party will take up something like this). But it has spanned all parties, all ages, all genres. The movement is growing whether you like it our not. I thought it was all crazy too… until I sat down and tried to prove the “tin foil hats” wrong… and ended up convincing myself that the official story is 100% USA grade bullshit.

    cheers

    -Rick

  • R. E. Lee

    I’m with getreal. If 9/11 was an inside job, then we are all doomed and might as well sit back and enjoy the ride.
    if you really, really believe it, then pretend you don’t and worm your way inside the corridors of power where you can destroy the conspiracy from within. Because if you go around accusing “them” of such nefarious deeds, you’ll be severely marginalized and/or become a target for elimination.

  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    Neal Boortz says that Alex Jones and his listeners/readers are all moonbats. If he says it it must be true and libertarians should avoid this movie like the plague.

    That said, where can you get a ticket?

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    I’m fairly confident there was some degree of complicity or condonement, though I can’t say I’m fully convinced that there was government instigation (not directly, at least.)

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    I’m with Nigel and Rick. I won’t go as far as saying “9/11 was an inside job”, but there’s far too many inconsistencies and suspicious details about the official story to take it at face value. There’s definitely a lot of information the FedGov is trying to cover up.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Rick (and Michelle),

    The distance from “the official story is 100% USA grade bullshit” to “9/11 was an inside job” is a giant leap.

    Even if one discounts significant portions of the “official account,” there are plausible explanations for inaccuracies or even outright lies that do not imply a pre-existing conspiracy in the government to commit the 9/11 attacks or to allow them to be committed.

    I haven’t seen the Alex Jones film yet, but I guess I’ll have to. What I’ve noticed in the “9/11 truth” films I have seen (“Loose Change” and “911: In Plane Site”) is that the leap from “there are problems with the government’s story” to “there’s evidence that the US government was behind the attacks” isn’t made … presumably because it can’t be.

    Even vonKleist goes too far in asserting (paraphrased) that if Party X can be proven to have lied about one part of Act Y, Party X can be assumed to be lying about, or to be involved in, all parts of Act Y. (con’t)

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from comment 9)By way of example, let’s take a bank robbery in which the security cameras show a man hanging around the bank around lunch time for several days before the robbery, and present during it although seemingly uninvolved. He tells the police that he wasn’t even there. Obviously he’s lying. Does this make him part of the robbery team? Perhaps the leader who cased the place, but took a passive role in the robbery itself?

    Or, perhaps, he’s a married guy having an affair with a teller at the bank and doesn’t want his wife to know he was there to pick her up for lunch.

    As a skylark (and COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTED) comparison, let’s take the Pentagon attack. Perhaps the US military plugged a cruise missile into the Pentagon because they had shot down Flight 77 over the Atlantic and didn’t want to admit it. That doesn’t translate to “the government planned the whole thing.”

    There are problems with the “official account.” Those problems do not prove anything else, however.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    As usual, well said, Thomas!

  • Torfinn

    Yeah, Bush restrained the FBI from moving on Al Queda, yeah towers fell that weren’t even affected by the heat or planes, yeah fireman swear the towers had explosives in them..

    :)

    Yeah, the Federal Reserve is a private group of European bankers that every single American is taking a loan from at an interest rate only they determine, Yeah several presidents knew and openly told the public this would be the worst thing that could possibly happen….

    Yeah, most of the Al Queda operatives were under heavy surveillance at the time of the attacks, yeah we used this as justification for the largest spending diversion in all of American history, transferring tax payer dollars into the pockets of Corps, yeah all those corps are closely affiliated with the administration as was Osama, and the rest of the Bin Laden family.

    :|

    So what?

    Hahahahaha. Thanks for coming forward Michelle, good luck dodging all the tunnel vision.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    inside job”‚

    a crime committed by or in collusion with a person or persons closely associated with the victim: The robbery seemed an inside job, because there was no evidence of forced entry.

  • http://www.LPWI.org Julius Caesar

    The evidence of an inside job by military elements and high Bush officials is overwhelming.

    This one isn’t even close.

    Please check out http://www.st911.org

  • Timothy West

    How does a government that cant do fucking anything right, from katrina onward, suddenly become this mastermind of conspiracy when it suits the fancy of poeple? They say the government is a sinister mastermind when it suits their purposes, and say it’s a fucked up bunch of idiots when THAT suits their purposes.

    How can it be both?

    I’m betting on the clueless idiots myself – I think Iraq has proven that. These same people could arrange 9/11? BULLSHIT.

    The same group of people cant be so smart and so dumb at the same time.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    This is a far walk on a long limb, but maybe they wanted chaos in NOLA. Fear and chaos seem to be the only things that the government is good at peddling lately.

  • paulie cannoli

    Michelle and rick got it right.

    Getreal needs to get real and learn that calling a presntation of facts and theories crazy is not a real counter-argument.

    RE Lee: sorry, but destroying the corridors of power from within is even less likely than destroying them from outside. I have personal reasons for making that statement, not just conjencture based on what I’ve read other say. I won’t go into detail, however.

    As for being marginalized: one of the guys I worked with went to the LP national convention this year, and another went to the 9-11 truth conference in LA. The 9-11 truth conference was about four times the size of the LP national convention. The 9-11 truth movement is growing, while the LP is shrinking. Who’s maarginalized again?

    TLK:

    I believe there is more than enough to bridge gaps. Perhaps you just haven’t seen enough of the material yet.

  • paulie cannoli

    Who said they are all that competent? A lot of times their operations fail. For instance, they tried to plant fake eveidence of WMDs in Iraq after the invasion and screwed it up.

    Other times, their plans work, but not right away. For example, I know several people who were asked to assassinate individuals ranging from Saddam Hussein to Yitzhak Rabin. Rabin was killed, but it was years later. There’s also a deal being shopped around right now for another terror attack. So far, apparently, no competent takers.

    Eventually, it is possible for some of their schemes to work, but you don’t even begin to see how many failures they have had (but you can read about it after the fact; for example, the history of attempts on Fidel Castro’s life in the 1960s).

  • Julian

    There is no terrorist threat. It is all invented by our corrupt, lying government and their intention is total annihilation of our way of life and our population. By doing this, all in charge will benefit from their own actions. We will all be crispy critters when they drop the big one on all of us. Maybe they like well done BBQ humans.

    It was Bush that communicated with God to destroy the Gulf Coast last year. He has a pact with the Creator to destroy all of us. It is really Bush that wants us all to convert to Islam. He is working for the Martians, Allah, God, Jesus, Buddha and the Living Dead who really control the world.

    What the hell is wrong with you people? You bunch are some of the most naive bunch of assholes I have ever heard of in my 60 year life. If you buy into such dribble, you will buy into anything.

    How about it Rick? Have I got it right now? When is the next meeting of the Moonbeam Green Cheese Society, LLC. You people are truly idiots.

  • The Resistance

    For those who want to see TerrorStorm, it can be watched for free on Google Video at the following address: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5792753647750188322

    It can also be bought on DVD directly from Alex at that address: http://infowars-shop.stores.yahoo.net/teascsyed.html

    And finally, I definitely recommend watching this report from FOX News about Alex’s recent warning… (the “PLEASE READ” part also has a lot of very interesting information and links): http://youtube.com/watch?v=9GCWPbhUB9s

  • paulie cannoli

    No, Julian is right. The government is only defending our freedom. There’s no danger from them. Actually, everything in the 9-11 commision report is true, and the magic bullet really did kill JFK. Whyy, the government has never lied to us; how could they? The Muslims are the ones taking away our freedom. Go back to sleep, citizens. Keep increasing the price of Julian’s Halliburton and oil company stock. Oh, by the way, he’s the real libertarian, and we are not. Thanks!

  • http://www.wisopinion.com/index.iml?mdl=article.mdl&article=4695 Julius Caesar

    The Bush Administration is trying to turn the American Republic into the American Empire.

    But they won’t get away with it.

    Basic 9/11 facts:

    1) the Twin Towers and Building 7 were destroyed by powerful explosives: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

    2) the 19 alleged “hijackers” were not on the airplanes:

    Top 10 Reasons the Hijackers are Fake
    http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org

    3) the U.S. military did not intercept the “hijacked” planes: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20051205150219651

    Don’t be fooled by the Big Lie.

    9/11 was not perpetrated by “the government”.

    “The government” is incompetent.

    9/11 was perpetrated by a few competent conspirators from the U.S. military and the Bush Administration.

    The 9/11 Truth movement is already bigger than the Libertarian movement, and more unified.

    Libertarians must think “outside the box” for us to grow.

  • Steve Benton

    Timothy, I agree with you, they (who ever they are) can’t be idiots and geniuses at the same time. During the Cold War, the U.S. govt went to great effort to keep secrets from the Soviet govt, but to no avail. Turns out that our own FBI and CIA agents and bureaucrats were selling our secrets to them. The Soviets also read about our secrets in the pages of the New York Times and other major newspapers. If the U.S. govt had been involved, somehow, in the 9/11 attacks, it would have come out by now. The probability of keeping a secret is inversely proportional to the number of people who know it.

  • Torfinn

    Julian, honestly the idea that 9/11 was a plot hatched simultaneously by a bunch of cave dwelling islamic militants sounds much crazier to me than that it was a professional military operation.

    Moonbats! Hahahaha… I love you people.

    If you even begin suggesting for a minute that if someone had given a damn about NOLA that the response wouldn’t have come 5 days sooner you’re crazy. The entire ground operation in Iraq lasted less time than the time it took for those people to get help. Seriously, apples and bannanas there’s absolutely no reason to believe that they wouldn’t shrug one off and be perfectly capable of allowing a chain of events to take place to lead to another.

    Julian, there’s no big bomb coming, there’s no holocaust, there’s just people on top and people on the bottom. For the people on the top they just climb as high as they can using those of us on the bottom as props to climb higher. The less rights we have, the better their lives are. What’s so hard aboutit

  • paulie cannoli

    Steve B.,

    If the U.S. govt had been involved, somehow, in the 9/11 attacks, it would have come out by now.

    Well, that’s the point – it has.

  • Steve Benton

    Paulie, you may know more about it than I do. Frankly, there’s not enough hours in the day to keep up with all the information out there. However, I’ll visit the websites suggested by Julius Caesar (Ave!) in a previous post, and I’ll continue to visit HoT. I’m skeptical, but openminded. Cheers!

  • paulie cannoli

    Cheers!

    This was my initial reaction to conspiracy theories about 9-11 which did not involve Arab hijackers. By the way, it is in fact possible to be both an idiot and a genius. Ever seen Rainman or, for that matter, Forrest Gump?

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Paulie,

    You write: “I believe there is more than enough to bridge gaps. Perhaps you just haven’t seen enough of the material yet.”

    Perhaps not. On the other hand, some of the material I have seen discredits itself as often as it discredits the official line.

    For example, the first part of “911: In Plane Site” focuses on an alleged protuberance from one of the aircraft and on a flash of light emerging from one of the buildings coincident with the plane’s impact. Problem is, the protuberance doesn’t appear to be there no matter how closely they zoom in and point at it, and the flash of light has been obviously and amateurishly enhanced in most of the shots. The obvious plausible explanation for the light (that one of the shaded windows was pulled loose by the jet intake flow immediately before impact and that the flash of light is light moving at 186,000 miles per second from a bulb in the office behind that window) is ignored in favor of raving about (contd)

  • http://www.wisopinion.com/index.iml?mdl=article.mdl&article=4695 Julius Caesar

    Point 3) would have better stated as:

    3) the U.S. military did not intercept the “hijacked” plane which hit the PENTAGON: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20051205150219651

    Are you a doubting Thomas or a doubting Libertarian???

    Think all that is bad with government can be explained by “inefficiency”, without resorting to conspiracies?

    The unexplained collapse of Building 7 is the tip of the iceberg of unexplored issues of the September 11th attack.

    Restore you faith, please see: http://www.wtc7.net/

    Don’t forget to see the owner’s admission!

    “Pulling” Building 7
    http://www.wtc7.net/pullit.html

    Galileo decided that the earth moved in 1597, but was afraid to speak out until 1610, when he had more proof.

    The 9-11 movement already has the proof. Speak out now, before the first amendment is suspended in the War on Terror.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from comment 28) the non-existent protuberance. That whole segment of the film is a wash, and almost made me stop watching the thing before it got to the much more credible part about the Pentagon.

    Ditto for “Loose Change.” Overall a good film, but there were obvious reaches in it. For example, when showing one of the recovered parts from the Pentagon crash, the narrator notes that it doesn’t have the bezels which appear on a technical drawing of the part. Problem is, the bezels are clearly visible. There’s no question whatsoever that they’re there. So that piece of “evidence” is just BS. That in turn threatens the credibility of other claims. Hell, “Loose Change” just comes right out and claims that the 19 alleged hijackers are still alive … and offers not so much as one word of evidence to substantiate the assertion.

    I have real problems with the “official story” on the Pentagon hit and some suspicions about WTC 7. But there are plausible alternative explanations (cont’d)

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from message 30) that don’t require asserting that 9/11 was an “inside job.” Just as the burden of proof is on the government to defend its “official account,” the burden of proof on alternative accounts is on those offering such accounts. I haven’t seen that burden of proof met.

  • http://www.911revisited.com/video.html Julius Caesar

    Thomas,

    Skip In Plane Site and the Pod People.

    Focus on the Buildings!

    “9/11 Revisited: Were explosives used?”
    http://www.911revisited.com/video.html

    This video is explosive! It even convinced Ed Thompson!

  • http://911research.wtc7.net Waleed Al Shehri

    Thomas,

    I’m still alive! It’s true. Here I am.

    Sunday, 23 September, 2001,
    Hijack ‘suspects’ alive and well
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

    Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.

    The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.

    Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.

    snip

    FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.

  • paulie cannoli

    Certainly, there are likely to be errors in 9-11 documentaries, which go over extensive amounts of material.

    Yet the overall picture is quite clear.

    http://killtown.911review.org/911smokingguns.html

    http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/05/occams-razor-proves-911-is-conspiracy.html

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2005/140605tenquestions.htm

  • paulie cannoli

    Whoops, 2nd link appears to be down.

  • R. E. Lee

    If any 9-11 conspiracy theorist ever secures a nomination for a prominent public office – and isn’t immediately denounced by the National Party – then all sane members need to say goodbye.

  • Julian

    Steve Benton

    #23 Where did you get your information? Please source so my peanut brain can do research. By the way, the CIA did not exist during WWII so that dis-reputes you right there.

  • http://www.wisopinion.com/index.iml?mdl=article.mdl&article=4695 Julius Caesar

    R.E. Lee;

    What’s your opinion of Morgan Reynolds?

    Morgan O. Reynolds, Ph.D., currently is Professor emeritus, economics, Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas. He is a former Chief Economist at the U.S. Department of Labor 2001-2002, and he also served as the Director of the Criminal Justice Center and Senior Fellow at the National Center for Policy Analysis, headquartered in Dallas, Texas.

    Professor Reynolds is the author or co-author of six books, including Public Expenditures, Taxes, and the Distribution of Income (1977), Power and Privilege: Labor Unions in America (1984), Crime by Choice (1985), and Economics of Labor (1995). He has published over 50 articles in refereed academic journals, including the American Economic Review, Journal of Political Economy and Journal of Labor Research.
    http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=home

    So you think Bin Laden acted alone? He’s a lone nut? Not a conspiracy? That’s your theory?

    Why hasn’t Bin Laden been indicted?

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    first another good film to watch on the subject.
    Everybody’s gotta learn sometime
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8372366181300641663

    Second If the govt had as much evidence on us as the 911 truth movement has on them, we would be in court on conspiracy charges.

    I am starting to lean towards inside job or at least purposely allowing it to happen.

    I keep thinking of the exp. done recently where people where asked to count how many times a basketball was passed back and forth in a video and in the middle a guy comes out in a gorilla suit. They then asked how many people saw the gorilla and most completely missed it.

    As soon as 9/11 happened the govt started passing the ball back and forth and most people missed the gorilla.

    I don’t think they had planned on being able to hide it forever, just long enough to start a few wars and take some rights which they have accomplished.

    watch them pass the ball
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ligvuLKCs

  • paulie cannoli

    If any 9-11 conspiracy theorist ever secures a nomination for a prominent public office – and isn’t immediately denounced by the National Party – then all sane members need to say goodbye.

    I agree, if by conspiracy theorist you mean someone so dedicated to the regime’s ridiculous 19 Arab conspiracy theory as to be unwilling to consider other theories, or even the obvious facts of the regime’s involvement in the American reichstag Fire (9-11).

    Oh, but let’s not get carried away with ridiculous conspiracy theories. As everyone knows, the US regime has always told the truth as a pretext for war: from the Gulf of Tonkin to Pear Harbor, Lusitania to the Maine, and back further into history. Not one lie; why would they suddenly start lying to us now? We true libertarians would never question our government like that. Why, that would be positively insane!

  • paulie cannoli

    Julian’s reading comprehension in action…

    Steve B:During the Cold War, the U.S. govt went to great effort to keep secrets from the Soviet govt, but to no avail. Turns out that our own FBI and CIA agents and bureaucrats were selling our secrets to them.

    JVD: Where did you get your information? Please source so my peanut brain can do research. By the way, the CIA did not exist during WWII so that dis-reputes you right there.

    WOW, no wonder he can’t see the forrest for the trees when it comes to 9-11 and the regime’s wars at home and abroad! I’m almost tempted to start believing him when he says he has a peanut brain.

  • Steve Benton

    Julian. Yes, the CIA did not exist during WW-II, but its forerunner organization, the OSS (Office of Strategic Services), did. However, I was referring to the Cold War (c.1946-c.1989). If you Google the name “Robert Philip Hanssen” you’ll get a deluge of material concerning one of the most egregious cases of a CIA employee, not necessarily an agent, who was on the KGB payroll. In my remarks, I was likely thinking of this case.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    “Waleed,”

    You write:

    “FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.”

    Well, which is it going to be? The US government made it up and is selling us a bill of goods, or the US government admits that it isn’t absolutely sure of the identities of the hijackers?

    Surely a cabal that’s capable of making the whole thing up wouldn’t have to admit that it doesn’t know everything, right?

    Julius,

    You write:

    “Why hasn’t Bin Laden been indicted?”

    Good question — more evidence against an “inside job.” Any cabal in the government that could put together 9/11 could surely herd a grand jury into indicting bin Laden — and would have, IF said cabal existed.

  • http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm Waleed Al Shehri

    Doubting Thomas;

    Mueller is assisting with the cover-up. Thousands of victim’s relative are asking for a new investigation, to no avail:

    Representative Of Largest 9/11 Families Group Says Government Complicit In Attack
    Tells radio host 9/11 Commission a sham, “cover-up beyond belief”
    http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/080706governmentcomplicit.htm

    The FBI has not revised its list of hijackers, despite that some are alive.

    Nor do the “hijackers” or their aliases appear on the passenger manifests!

    None are on airport surveilance videos from the airports where the “hijackings” occurred.

    None has had their body identified, nor had an autopsy.

    The Bush administration made up a big fat lie, and Mueller was doing a little backtracking. (for now)

    btw – The FBI claims they found a list of the 19 “hijackers” in Atta’s luggage, along with the Koran and a Terrorism manuel, IN ANOTHER AIRPORT on the morning of 911, that’s where the 19 “hijackers” names came from.

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    sorry I had to put on my hat for this

    About the public finding out about the possibility of it being an inside job.

    Why do you think they are wanting to end net nuetrality why are they wanting to allow companies to take control of the internet and limit and control access to information.

    because most Americans would have never heard the other side the possibility of government involvement without the internet

    I for one without a internet connection would have never heard of loose change I would have gone on just thinking they where inept

    we already see that the msm will barely touch this issue, and will continue to skip around it. If it wasn’t for the internet community asking questions they still would not have mentioned it.

    If it wasn’t for the internet it would have been 20 30 years before enough people could get together to try and find the truth.

    but just remember according to our government just by having this conversation we are helping the terrorists

  • http://www.911blogger.com Julius Caesar

    Doubting Thomas;

    Bin Laden hasn’t been indicted for 9/11 because most people already believe he’s been indicted for 9/11.

    Why task the risk? Evidence introduced in court will be subjected to more scrutiny.

    The “confession video” of Bin laden is the only public evidence. It is about as real as the video of Rolf Lindgren stealing the $50: http://thedailypage.com/features/docfeed/docs/document.php?intdocid=130

    Bin Laden is left-handed according to the FBI, but is writing notes with his right hand on the “confession video”. (you can see this on Loose Change near the end of the documentry: http://www.loosechange911.com/)

    Here is the government’s explanation of why Bin Laden hasn’t been indicted:

    Bin Laden, Most Wanted For Embassy Bombings?
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/27/AR2006082700687.html

    You may say that Bin Laden not being indicted is evidence against an inside job. But I say it’s even better evidence that 19 Arabs didn’t do 9/11!

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Ryan,

    “because most Americans would have never heard the other side the possibility of government involvement without the internet”

    The Internet didn’t exist when the Maine blew up, nor did it exist on December 7th, 1941, nor did it exist at the time of the Gulf of Tonkin incident. So how did Americans “hear the other side of” those stories?

    The Internet is a great tool for disseminating information — and for disseminating DIS-information. If I didn’t know better (and I don’t), I’d have to suspect that the wing of “9/11 Truth Movement” peddling the “government was behind it” assertions is one big government disinformation operation aimed at discrediting those actually asking reasonable questions and looking for plausible answers.

    As a matter of fact, I began to suspect that as soon as the Holocaust deniers and the “I found a loophole in the revenue code”rs started crawling out of the same woodwork.

  • paulie cannoli

    The Internet didn’t exist when the Maine blew up, nor did it exist on December 7th, 1941, nor did it exist at the time of the Gulf of Tonkin incident. So how did Americans “hear the other side of” those stories?

    Much belatedly.

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    Thomas,

    You are right there is both good and bad information on the internet. It is all a matter of who and what you choose to believe. Like I said I am still on the fence leaning towards believing mainly because of many of the unanswered questions that the govt refuses to answer.

    It is mainly the time frame that the internet changed. I have decided that I don’t know much and I usually stick to that story. But how long after the Maine and gulf of Tonkin incident did the truth actually come out? was it around 5 years or was it much longer?

    So no I don’t know how people found out the truth on those.

    But are we ever going to know the whole truth of 9/11?

  • http://rizzn.com Mark “Rizzn” Hopkins

    It sickens me that the LP has a growing contingent of nutjobs like this. Now is the time that the LP could move into the mainstream, and instead we have vocal libertarians like you out there giving us all a bad name.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie The Big Lie

    Mark,

    The 9-11 Truth movement is already moving into the mainstream, while armchair media experts from the LP just sit and watch.

    Post # 17 already stated:

    “As for being marginalized: one of the guys I worked with went to the LP national convention this year, and another went to the 9-11 truth conference in LA. The 9-11 truth conference was about four times the size of the LP national convention. The 9-11 truth movement is growing, while the LP is shrinking. Who’s marginalized again?”

    A recent poll found that 36% of Americans suspect 9/11 was an inside job: http://www.911blogger.com/node/2053

    As the Press Secretary for one of our State LP affiliates, I can tell you that calling 36% of the population “nutjobs” is a great way to stay marginalized!

    Defending mass murder doesn’t help either.

    Inside Jobs in government are as old as the Roman Empire.

    And they will continue as long as people keep buying the Big Lie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    Sorry I didn’t know I was a nutjob for asking questions.

  • http://www.titaniumgirl.blogspot.com elle

    Mark,
    I don’t know if you realize how many people you are referring to as “nutjobs”. Generalizations like that are what I try to steer clear from. And for the record, I didn’t see any nutjobs at the movie premeire – it was a great mix, like Michelle said. Nobody was foaming at the mouth or acting like a freakshow. The only accurate way to describe the crowd was “open minded”.

  • paulie cannoli

    Actually, I agree with Mr. Rizzn completely, but I’m afraid his remarks may be open to misinterpretation.

    To be more clear, he should have said, “It sickens me that the LP has a growing contingent of nutjobs like this (Julian fellow). Now is the time that the LP could move into the mainstream (of the growing 9-11 truth movement), and instead we have vocal libertarians like you out there giving us all a bad name.”

    Given that the 9-11 truth movement is much more mainstream than the LP, I can’t see how he could possibly have meant anything else.

  • http://www.titaniumgirl.blogspot.com elle

    Good Point Paulie – so who is the “YOU” that you are referring to, Mark?

  • Timothy West

    once again, either the government is a sinister bunch of masterminds that can create and hold together the greatest conspiracy the world has ever seen, or they’re a bunch of incompentant idiots depending on the discussion, the issue, and who’s arguing what point.

    (L)ibertarians fucking love conspiracies, proven or not. It feeds into their sense of validation and self worth as noble moral freedom fighters. Instant gratification.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I always thought that it was the job of libertarians to ask questions of the government in our employ. Perhaps I fucked up and missed the part that said, “only questions others agree with.” When you get down to it, every question could be considered “nutty”. Questions we ask-on this site-everyday. You know, the Corey Maye ones- the budget/deficit ones- big or small issues, the government works for us and is accountable. (even though they try to tell us differently)

  • http://www.titaniumgirl.blogspot.com elle

    Who is the authority that determines which questions are legitimate and which are not? Who has the right or ability to determine that someone else is a “nutjob”? Calling someone else a “nutjob” is a cowardly way to marginalize someone who threatens you, albeit in a small way. If Libertarians quit asking REAL questions then they are no longer Libertarians.

    I’m not saying that everyone has to agree with me or Michelle, I’m just advising that name calling is childish and shows that rather than dispute certain beliefs like civilized individuals folks have been quick to pass judgment and resort to name calling.

    Give Peace a Chance Yo! – it starts at home and in every action you say or type.

  • Andy

    Of course the US government carried out 9/11. Who else could have made NORAD stand down? Why is it that a record number of put options were purchased through a bank that had been headed by Executive Director of the CIA Buzzy Cromgaurd? Why did Building 7 of the WTC complex mysteriously collapse when it was not hit by a plane and was on the other side of the WTC complex from Buildings 1 & 2? Do you people know that Marvin Bush was involved with the company that ran security at the World Trade Center? Pretty convient for planting bombs.

    Alex Jones is a great patriot and freedom fighter. Neal Boortz is a phoney and I wouldn’t be surpired if he’s a RepubliCON plant. The “Fair Tax” scheme that he’s pushing is a Trojan Horse that REAL libertarians ought to avoid like the plague.

    I was in attendance at the big 9/11 Truth Conference in Los Angeles entitled “9/11 And The Neo-Con Agenda” and it was an amazing event with over 1,200 people in attendence.

  • Andy

    BYU Physics Professor Steven Jones has studied 9/11 extensively and he says that planted explosives took the down the WTC. Read about it here…

    http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

    Professor Jones has analyzed rubble from the WTC and he found traces of thermite.

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/240406thermiteidentified.htm

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/200606scientificanalysis.htm

    Here’s a video of Professor Jones…

    http://www.veoh.com/videoDetails.html;jsessionid=7F1118931F1407A5146226B125BCD08D?v=e102335Tx65PTHd

  • Andy

    I have “Terror Storm” on DVD and I’d call it a must see. Other Alex Jones’ films on 9/11 and the phoney “War On Terror” are “9/11, The Road To Tyranny,” “The Masters Of Terror,” and, “Martial Law – 9/11, Rise Of The Police State.” They are all outstanding and can be ordered at http://www.infowars.com.

    “9/11 In Plane Site” by David VonKliest (www.911InPlaneSite.com) is good as well but keep in mind that the “pod theory” that he suggests about the planes that crashed into the WTC towers is considered to be controversial in the 9/11 Truth Movement.

  • Andy

    I find it odd that some people who call themselves libertarians have a hard time believing that the government – or more accurately factions within the government – are behind the 9/11 attack. Have you people not been paying attention?

    Our government lies to us on a dailey basis. The Federal Reserve System and the “money” that we are forced to use every day is a LIE. The IRS and the income tax are a LIE. The Social(ist) (In)Security program is a LIE. The War On Drugs is a LIE. The Patriot Act is a LIE. Our government LIED about the sinking of the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, The Gulf Of Tonkin, the sinking of the USS Liberty, Waco, Ruby Ridge, the build up to both wars against Iraq, etc… Government officials swear an oath to defend the Constitution and once in office they violate this oath on a regular basis which means that they LIED when they took the oath.

    Why is it so radical to suggest that factions within our government are behind the 9/11 attack?

  • Andy

    9/11 And American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out
    http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060827145953240

  • Andy

    Michael Badnarik signed a petition calling for a real investigation of 9/11. He’s #6 on this list of well known people that signed.

    http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

  • Stuart Richards

    Egh…

    Suffice it to say that I don’t agree with this post, and Julian and Tim West are the voices of reason here.

    Conspiracy theories and political parties don’t coincide. I’m all for having the government release all information they have on this and pretty much everything else… but let’s save the tinfoil for the conspiracy theory sites.

  • http://people.howstuffworks.com/conspiracy-theory.htm Lord Acton

    Tim,

    The federal government loves conspiracy theories.

    80% of all federal drug charges are conspiracies.

    Federal Prosecutors spend most of their time blaming other people for conspiracies.

    Over 56% of all federal prisoners were involved in a conspiracy to commit a victimless crime.

    Libertarians are not even in the same league as these guys when it comes to conspiracy theories.

    Get ahold of yourself.

    And plese don’t forget:

    “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

  • Andy

    Stuart, why do you believe the official government story? Of course political parties engage in conspiracies and lies.

    Our government – or more accurately factions within our government – HAVE gotten caught for carrying out 9/11. This is where the mountain of evidence points. They had the motive and they are the ones who have benifitted. The 9/11 Truth Movement is getting bigger all the time as more and more people wake up.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Ryan writes: “Sorry I didn’t know I was a nutjob for asking questions.”

    Andy notes: “Michael Badnarik signed a petition calling for a real investigation of 9/11.”

    “9/11 was an inside job” is not a question or a call for an investigation. It’s an assertion.

    More to the point, it’s an assertion which, on the evidence offered for it (e.g. not one iota that I’ve been able to find), seems to be considerably less plausible than the (very questionable) “official account.”

    There are lots of good questions about 9/11. There’s lots of good evidence for the “official account” being incorrect. The arguments for 9/11 being an inside job all come down to “the official account isn’t plausible,” and strings of disconnected allegations — some true, some remotely plausible, some completely implausible — with no proof of interconnectedness. That isn’t enough. A counter-narrative requires as much evidence as the narrative it disputes, not just evidence that the narrative it disputes is incorrect.

  • GreginOz

    The minute a Libertarian DOES NOT question Government and doubt every lieing word it spews out, is the minute that one UNBECOMES Libertarian. It is the duty of all to automatically query the actions and words of those in power. The ancient Latin phrases “Who benefits?” & “Who guards the guards?” are 2000 years old. This problem with Gummint has been around since then, at least. How can one NOT DOUBT anything a government says?

    “When Law becomes Injustice, Resistance becomes Duty”.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Tim, back in 15 you asked how the gov that f’d up katrina could be so precise in 911. I wonder the same thing daily-In NOLA, they checked homes for bodies and left evidence for the families to find- In NY, they left no evidence to examine. Bizarre indeed.

  • Timothy West

    It’s just not credible that government can be a bunch of cunning conspiracy masterminds in one instance and a bunch of fucked up retards in another.

    You use whichever instance suits your purposes at the time. That way, you never run the risk of being proved wrong either way.

    There’s plenty of people just like FEMA’s Michael Brown in our “intelligence services”, politically appointed hacks who know nothing about spying or ‘intelligence’. Most of the people that work in government today do so becuase they can’t hold a job in the private sector concerning what they do.

  • Andy

    Tom, I’ve been studying 9/11 since it happened and it is my belief that there is enough evidence to call it an inside job.

    Why did Building 7 collapse in a symetrical fashion? Why did BYU Physics Professor Steven Jones say that thermite was used to take down the WTC buildings? Why did NORAD stand down, espeically since Andrews Air Force Base is only about 10 miles from the Pentagon? Is it just a coincidence that a record number of put options (bets that the stocks would go down) were purchased on the airliners that are alleged to have been used in the attack, and that these put options were purchased through a bank that had been headed by Executive Director of the CIA, Buzzy Cromgaurd? Is it just a coincidence that Marvin Bush was involved with the company that ran security at the WTC?

    Ask yourself this, who gained the most from 9/11? Who got to expand their power? Who got to expand their budget?

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Tim, you might want to consider that the “fucked up retards” in government are often less stupid than they are evil. I would submit that many government failures (but I repeat myself) are, at least partially, by design. Unlike the real world of the private sector, they don’t have the same incentives to succeed, i.e. manage funds wisely. In government, virtually every failure presents the opportunity to say, “Well, if we just had more money, we could finish the job properly!” And this same stupid song-and-dance continues to fool the masses into re-electing them and coughing up more of their hard-earned dough.

    As I said early on, I’m not yet convinced 9/11 was an “inside job”, but I’ve witnessed enough government deception and evil to believe it could happen.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I am glad you brought up intelligence. I have been reading much about it- and our government’s choice to play politics over it. I am still learning about those choices and how they influenced the investigations of other disasters. I am not quite up to speed on those issues, but given all I see, I maintain that the 911 story as told by Washington is bullshit- at least,of course, until some of the answers are bubbled in. Back to the library tomorrow.

  • http://www.st911.org Julius Caesar

    Tim;

    Conspiracies are not carried out by dumbass government hacks like Michael Brown or George Bush, they are carried out by political operatives like Dick Cheney, Karl Rove or the Clintons.

  • Timothy West

    There’s also a big difference between asserting that the government allowed 9-11 to happen becuase of incompetence and suggesting it was a plot: the difference is between looking gutsy and telling the truth and EXACTLY looking like nutjobs.

    The time is RIPE for suggesting that 9-11 was as bad as it was becuase the government officals involved are stupid politically appointed bozos with red noses that honk. The public is quite ready to accept that argument. I think they are LOOKING for someone to advance it.

    It’s where you assert that these same bozos with red noses that go honk honk could have planned it all.

    Come on. You just lost your chance to be credible. You had the american voter, were ready to say something they would accept and vote upon, and you lost it all becuase you couldnt settle for 80% of you think and win as a result. You had to go for it all, lose everything, have that same voter call the LP a bunch of nutjobs, and get nothing as a result.

  • Timothy West

    No, those people are hacks as well. If you want to find the true leaders of America, look for where the money is coming from. It’s coming from banking, insurance, defense, the Lockheed Martins and the Nationsbanks and the Liberty Mutual’s. There’s no greater concentration of power in America, and these people we elect are mostly bought and paid for. Thats why its so important to get the LP ( or another party on the side of liberty) into the game and able to win. We wont ever get anything back if we dont. The country will be done for.

  • http://www.st911.org Julius Caesar

    Political hacks are bought and paid for.

    Political operatives & manipulators make things happen.

    Sort of like the difference between bribery and exhortion.

    Of all the the greatest political manipulators of all time (good or bad), none are bought and paid for.

    Napolean, Hitler, James Madison, Gengis Khan, Tamerlane, Sargon of Akkad, Lorenzo the Magnificant, Lenin, etc.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I think I copied and pasted the definition of inside job several comments earlier. I still think that this was an inside job. Nothing I said about what I am learing about “intelligence” was meant to crawfish from my original post.

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    to go back to NOLA a moment most of the people involved there where poor and black. Has our current administration done anything in the past 6 years to show that they care for them?

    tim
    “But are we ever going to know the whole truth of 9/11?”
    sounded like a question when I wrote it.
    We already know that there are lies involved in the official story look at able danger, and just look at WTC 7 as silverstien admits it was “pulled”

    9/11 as I am sure most will agree is probably the most important event in the past 5 years, if not longer.
    It has been a pretext for lost rights and directly the invasion of afghanistan. And indirectly as a reason to invade Iraq, how many people have you talked to that swear to you that we are in Iraq to get the terrorists, we know they falsfified information to go there and if not for 9/11 more people would have probably taken a stand against.

    Trust me I was happy in my world when I still trusted our govt but now I feel questions must be asked.

  • Andy

    Some people in government are stupid, but they are mostly at the lower levels. At the higher levels they are not stupid, they are some of the sharpest people around, but they are also evil. Much of what government does is deliberate. They didn’t “screw up” with Hurricane Katrina, their handling of it was a drill for the police state to get prepared for martial law. 9/11 didn’t happen because the government “screwed up,” it was a DELIBERATE INSIDE JOB that factions within our government carried out to get the American sheeple to accept wars of aggression abroad and stepping up the police state here at home.

  • Julian

    I suggest libertarians stay away from topics such as this if we are ever going to have a chance of being a force for liberty. We have truly marginalized ourselves once again with voters that may have stumbled onto this site and read these comments.

    We can spend years and years validating our beliefs and then suddenly sabotage ourselves with unbelievable conspiracy theories such as this.

    Let me say that we set out to find a way to offer a huge reward, maybe 100 million dollars, to have someone credible to step up and expose the thousands and thousands of corrupt government employees and politicians that would have been involved before, during and after 9/11 to keep such a huge event secret from the rest of us.

    I cannot possibly believe they can be stupid as most of you believe and then geniuses all at the same time.

    Where is reasoning and logic, folks? When are we going to win elections? This won’t do it.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Andy,

    You write:

    “Tom, I’ve been studying 9/11 since it happened and it is my belief that there is enough evidence to call it an inside job.”

    Fair enough. However, next, you pose several questions for which there are multiple plausible answers — and no interconnecting fabric of evidence that the answers to those questions are connected in a way which indicates an “inside job.”

    Let’s take it from the top:

    “Why did Building 7 collapse in a symetrical fashion?”

    More to the point, why did the owner of the WTC complex publicly refer to having had it intentionally demolished, and then backtrack, and why does the “official report” include no assertion of intentional demolition.

    One plausible explanation is that, for whatever reason, the owner decided to go ahead and take the damaged building down, but then didn’t want to get in a wrestle with his insurors over having totaled it when it might have been a partial damage claim if he hadn’t done that. Not the ONLY plausible (cont’d)

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from 83) explanation, but a plausible explanation that does not require foreknowledge of the attacks, let alone complicity in them.

    “Why did BYU Physics Professor Steven Jones say that thermite was used to take down the WTC buildings?”

    Because he believes that to be the case (and other physicists believe otherwise — are they all on “the conspiracy’s” payroll)?

    Let’s assume, however, that Jones is correct. That doesn’t tell us anything about WHO used thermite to bring the buildings down. One plausible alternative explanation is that al Qaeda followed one of its own past bombing practices: Follow up one attack with another slightly after. Ram the planes into the buildings. Then drive vans, packed with explosives, disguised as emergency vehicles and coming in while real emergency vehicles are too, into the underground garages (so as to avoid the security issues of driving them in before). Think maybe “the authorities” would not want to admit to yet another (cont’d)

  • R. E. Lee

    Paulie, Andy, and others are obvious plants put into the LP by the conspirators. Their job is to make the LP ineffective and spread crazy rumors that most Americans won’t believe. Now, they will deny this obviously, but isn’t that what we would expect? All conspiracies need so-called “revealers” to make outlandish criticisms. Or maybe I’m one of the conspirators. Or what about Bill Redpath?
    Wasn’t Nolan’s job to set up a third party so that the GOP could separate out the nutty libertarians? Other than these people denying this, how do we really know???

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from 84) security failure and would thus cover that aspect up (although live coverage at the scene supports the notion that bombs were found there)? Once again, not the only plausible alternative to the official account, but a plausible alternative which does not require assuming foreknowledge or complicity within the US government.

    “Why did NORAD stand down, espeically since Andrews Air Force Base is only about 10 miles from the Pentagon?”

    Plausible explanations (once again, not the only ones): a) some bonehead realized that this was not a conventional foreign attack and went by the book; or b) NORAD didn’t stand down, and in fact a US aircraft shot Flight 77 down over the Atlantic and then plugged a missile into the Pentagon to cover up the fact that the US government had just killed dozens of civilians due to a quick but regretted decision. Once again, no foreknowledge or complicity required.

    Now, let’s get to Krongard. (cont’d)

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from 86) “Is it just a coincidence that a record number of put options (bets that the stocks would go down) were purchased on the airliners that are alleged to have been used in the attack, and that these put options were purchased through a bank that had been headed by Executive Director of the CIA, Buzzy Cromgaurd (sic)?”

    No, it’s probably not a coincidence. What it is, however, is pretty good evidence that Krongard was not involved. “Put” options can be purchased anywhere. If Krongard was involved, why would he route those transactions, or cause them to routed, through a bank he’d recently headed? In fact, the bank he headed is a subsidiary of Europe’s largest banking cartel (Deutschebank), a likely avenue through which foreign investors would route. So the choice of bank was likely not coincidental — but Krongard’s previous involvement with that bank likely was, unless it was chosen specifically to make him a patsy.

    There are two specific groups (cont’d)

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie Julius Caesar

    Thomas;

    Glad to see you are thinking critically about 9/11.

    Here is some more info to chew on regarding foreknowledge of the attacks:

    The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
    by Dr. David Ray Griffin
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=GRI20060129&articleId=1846

    There is discussion of foreknowledge in 2 sections;

    4. Other Suspicious Facts

    excert

    Foreknowledge of the Collapse: One more possibly relevant fact is that then Mayor Rudy Giuliani, talking on ABC News about his temporary emergency command center at 75 Barkley Street, said:

    We were operating out of there when we were told that the World Trade Center was gonna collapse, and it did collapse before we could get out of the building.[59]

    This is an amazing statement. Prior to 9/11, fire had never brought down a steel-frame high-rise. [there's more]

    and

    Much More Extensive Foreknowledge [this regards Building 7]

    Cui Bono?

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from 87) I can think of who would, armed with foreknowledge of the attacks, would likely have routed “put” options through Deutschebanke: al Qaeda, and those with access to the intelligence of another country for which there is at least nominal evidence of some foreknowledge (of unknown degree) of the attacks (Israel).

    “Is it just a coincidence that Marvin Bush was involved with the company that ran security at the WTC?”

    Probably. It’s not like “being involved” would allow Marvin Bush to tell them “oh, by the way, airplanes are going to hit these buildings. Pay no attention.” The Bushes are rich and powerful people. They own big companies and they get sweetheart contracts. In the absence of any evidence that Marvin Bush knew about the attacks in advance or in any way acted to facilitate them, coincidence is, indeed, the most likely explanation.

    Cui bono? is a good question. It is not the only question, however. And questions ARE NOT ANSWERS.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Julius,

    I’m pulling up the site you refer to now, but once again, a plausible explanation for the Giuliani quote is easy. Additional explosives were found, or had already gone off, and his command center was notified to get out of Dodge. That doesn’t imply that he knew about the attacks beforehand, or was involved in them, or that the people feeding him information did or were either.

    I just browsed the Griffin piece. Some interesting material (especially on the “power-down” in the south tower the weekend before). I want to examine it more closely, but, apart from the “power-down” assertion, it still seems to connect a lot of questions with answers that aren’t necessarily as plausible as alternative answers.

    As far as “thinking critically” about 9/11 goes, I’ve been doing so for about five years now. “Thinking critically” involves more than rejecting implausibilities in the “official account,” however. It demands that the same standards be applied to other theories as well.

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    Question for both sides.

    Is there a smoking gun that would make you believe one way or another?

    By that I mean is there one piece of evidence that would make you go the other way to what you believe.

    for example if they released more footage of what hit the pentagon and it went against what you believed would it be enough to change your mind?

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie Julius Caesar

    Thomas;

    Here is the crux of the whole deal:

    1) Building 7 went down in a bottom-up, standard controlled demolition.

    2) The Twin Towers went down top-down, in a nonstandard controlled demolition. The Towers were lined with explosives from top to bottom.

    3) No “outside job” could have pulled this off. A truck bomb does not do the trick. The security company with Marvin Bush (and Bush’s cousin as CEO, William Wirt)was a firm well connected to the federal government.

    The more you look at it, you can see that only an inside job can explain the facts.

    Its sort of like the Scott Peterson case, only stronger.

    No one “proved” that Peterson killed his wife.

    But the government showed that Peterson had the means and motive to kill his wife, that Peterson acted suspiciously, and had all sorts of circumstantial evidence that Peterson did it. And there was a small window to make it improbale that someone else killed his wife.

    It was an overwhelming curcumstantial case.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie Julius Caesar

    Thomas,

    Regarding the stock put options…

    The people making a buck on them would most likely be insiders acting on rumors and hot tips from other insiders.

    No need to route the transactions from another country (and maybe arouse suspicion?), they got away with it right in front of everyone’s nose.

    btw – the 9/11 Commission checked into the put options.

    They discovered that the transactions had no link to Al Queda, so they were not suspicious!

  • Nicholas Sarwark

    93 fucking comments rehashing the same discredited conspiracy theories?

    What’s the point? Why do you all have such a deep-seated need for there to be a bigger picture? It’s not fucked up enough that some religious nutjobs got pissed off enough to fly planes into buildings?

    The government doesn’t have to be involved in everything bad that happens. Taking advantage of tragedy to curtail civil liberties doesn’t mean that you caused the tragedy.

    Let go of this obsessive need for everything to be part of some nefarious plot and recognize that sometimes, things are just fucked up.

  • Steve Benton

    I’m happy to see this discussion is still going. I haven’t had an opportunity to dig very deeply into the questions concerning 9/11, though I have bookmarked the Scholars for 9/11 Truth website. Maybe this weekend I’ll get chance to look into this further. Until then, I’m still reserving judgement. In the mean time, I have a question. Will this movie, Terror Storm, be distributed to theaters nationwide? I’d like to see it.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    I’m going to leave off arguing about this now, and continue to follow such arguments and evidence as I see prevented. As of right now, however, I’m right where I started:

    1) I’ve seen a number of reasonable arguments that the “official” account doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

    2) I see no convincing body of evidence — not even a circumstantial set — that it was “an inside job.” There are some areas in which that assertion just barely begins to reach toward the level of plausibility, and no areas in which that assertion is proven.

    If I ever own stock in an aspirin company that contracts out for animal testing, and my third cousin’s former husband’s best friend’s nephew’s dog turns up dead of internal abdominal bleeding, I hope to hell none of you are working for a prosecutor or, worse yet, sitting on a jury.

  • Torfinn

    Hahahaha, well Thomas atleast you have an open mind and a sense of humor about it.

    I think what pushes most people involved here to believe that there is an inside job is historical situations of great similarity to this particular tragedy, and that so much to gain as a result was so quickly seized. Not to mention that so much evidence has been casually dismissed and thrown away that is contrary to a story that even resembles coherence as the public is currently accepting it.

    Nicholas, sluffing people’s questions off as some deep seated need to prove a bigger picture is hardly in line with the level of debate happening between Thomas and Julius and or others, it’s only a step above mud slinging.

    I wonder how many people suggested the founding fathers let go of their deep seated needs for freedom and liberty and an open government that represented the people, or how many patriots in America’s past have faced the exact same type of mud slinging.

    cont.

  • Torfinn

    Noone is imagining some plot out of thin air here people.

    There is a set of circumstances before us that makes absolutely no sense, and it just so happens to be a set of circumstances that drove the biggest swiftest seizure of liberties we’ve ever been a witness to, as well as a seizure of tax payer money that was swiftly transferred into the coffers of key individuals that own different companies closely related to the administration.

    If you don’t question these issues, I’d be forced to think of you as crazy and a little self delusional. It’s times like these that answers need to be found, not simply writing things off for the EASY answer and living in a little comfort bubble of denial. There are a lot of questions, all of the valid. Perhaps answering them is more important than senseless infighting and mud slinging on other people’s ideas.

    This is the problem with the Libertarian party, not the ideas held within it.

  • http://www.st911.org Julius Caesar

    Thomas,

    Do you see any evidence that it was an outside job?

  • Torfinn

    Hahhahahahahaha.

    Thanks Julius, I needed that.

  • Nicholas Sarwark

    I wonder how many people suggested the founding fathers let go of their deep seated needs for freedom and liberty and an open government that represented the people, or how many patriots in America’s past have faced the exact same type of mud slinging.

    Torfinn,
    If you have a “deep seated need for freedom and liberty and open government,” maybe you should take a look at the post right above this one, in which I call out an actual, documented, verifiable government action to deny U.S. citizens their Constitutional rights.

    You don’t need to go to conspiracy theories when there’s so much evil done out in the open.

  • Torfinn

    One is being justified directly as a result of the set of circumstances in the other.

    I think buildings with no damage vaporizing into thin air, hundreds of billions of dollars, draconion laws and wars killing tens of thousands of civilians are pretty “out in the open”.

    I understand your perspective Nicholas, and respect your agenda I simply think it’s a narrow view.

  • Torfinn

    Perhaps a simpler way of puttin it…

    Do you treat the cough, or do you treat the cold?

  • Andy

    Here’s an article about Marvin Bush being involved with security at the WTC.

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911security.html

  • Andy

    Osama bin Laden, AKA CIA Asset Tim Osman
    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/binladen_cia.html

  • Andy

    Nicholas, how is saying that 9/11 was an inside job by factions within our government a “discredited conspiracy theory?” Who discredited it? The 9/11 Truth community is open to public debate, it is those who push the official government story who refuse to engage in debate. Why do you automatically believe the government story and lash out at anyone who questions it? It sounds to me like you are still stuck in government/mainstream media conditioning mindset. Governments are evil and engage in conspiracies, deal with it.

  • Andy

    BYU Physics Professor Finds Thermate In WTC Remains, Building Collapse An Inside Job
    http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml

  • http://www.st911.org Julius Caesar

    Hey, if 9/11 was an inside job, wouldn’t that undermine the need for us to fight wars in the Middle East, spy on people, and pass the Patriot Act?

    You know, the stale left-wing arguments against war didn’t work in 2004, Bush got re-elected.

    Since 9/11 was an inside job, it pretty stupid to let Bush & Co. get away with mass murder.

    Once the public is convinced that 9/11 was an inside job, it will completely undermine the authority of the federal government and the main stream media.

    Sounds like a bonanza!

    Scholars for 9/11 Truth
    http://www.st911.org

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    the fact that we are over a hundred comments on this doesn’t it seem like people want to talk about this subject.

    Yes some people may be alienated by talking about this subject, but be honest how many people look at us funny when we talk about legalizing drugs?

    If you think the conspiracy theory is wrong point out why poke holes in it the same way the conspiracy theorists poke holes in the official story. Don’t ask people to stop talking about it. We already hear that from our President which almost sounds like a good enough reason to talk about it to me.

    You know if this subject gets this much of a response here what kind of response would it get if the MSM started actually talking about it.

    Yes I know it is a hard subject for some people to talk about but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed.

  • Andy

    Nicholas, 9/11 was done out in the open and the government HAS gotten caught. Just because there are a lot of people who are too brainwashed to realize that 9/11 was an inside job it doesn’t mean that there aren’t a lot of people who’ve figured it out.

    The Federal Reserve “Notes” that we call “money” are one of the SCAMS in history. Our Constitution says that nothing but gold or silver coin shall be used as payment for debts, yet how many Americans know this? How many Americans know that the Federal Reserve is a scam that robs them of their wealth through inflation? Millions of Americans use Federal Reserve “Notes” everyday and don’t even realize that they are being ripped off by this fiat currency scam. The Federal Reserve was concocted in a secret conspiracy meeting between a few bankers and politicians in the early 1900′s at a JP Morgan owned estate on Jekyel Island, Georgia. This conspiracy has had a HUGE (negative) impact on the American people but very few people…

  • Andy

    are even aware of it or having any understanding of it. To find out more about the Federal Reserve I’d suggest reading G. Edward Griffin’s excellent book, “The Creature From Jekyel Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve” which is available at http://www.realityzone.com.

    The average American knows nothing about the Federal Reserve System which was hatched in a conspiracy and is one of the biggest scams in the history of the planet, and you don’t think that the government would or could carry out 9/11. Do you also believe that The Gulf Of Tonkin incident really happened? Do you believe that FDR’s administration was really suprised that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor? Do you believe that Saddam Hussien had WMD and was going to attack America?

    Do governments engage in conspiracies? OF COURSE THEY DO!

  • Andy

    Good point Julius Caesar, 9/11 has been the pretext that the Bush regime has used to launch wars of aggression in the Middle East and to increase the police state here at home. More and more people are waking up to 9/11 being an inside job every day. If this ever becomes the majority opinion it could bring the whole house of cards crumbling down for the government.

  • http://www.st911.org Julius Caesar

    I just realized that the assassination of Julius Caesar was an inside job!

    Or was it a nutjob conspiracy theory postulated by Plutarch and Shakespeare? Don’t those wacko conspiracy-starved guys have something else to write about?

  • Nicholas Sarwark

    I do note that it’s the same 5-7 people who are always commenting on these threads (Andy, Torfinn, Julius Caesar, Rick Rajter, paulie cannolli, and now Michelle Shingal). These commenters always post the same 10-12 links to the same sites that echo the same innuendos. There isn’t a debate here, any more than there’s a debate between intelligent design and evolutionary biology. Instead, there’s the same true believers crying out in the wilderness on their mission to reveal the “truth.”

    Debunking the 9/11 Myths

    I’m done feeding the trolls.

  • Rick Rajter

    Nicholas,

    I’ll call the waaaahhhh-bulance for you.

    And for every debunk link, I can match back. And you can match back. And we go on and on till we sit down and discuss without flooding comments, using ad hominems, and appeals to emotion.

    BTW. You seem to have more posts in this thread than me :)

    cheers

  • Andy

    “Out of these troubled times, our fifth objective, a new world order, can emerge: a new era, freer from the threat of terror, stronger in the pursuit of justice, and more secure in the quest for peace.”
    - George Bush on 9/11/90 –

    Odd that George HW BUsh said this in his State Of The Union address on 9/11/90, exactly 11 years before the 9/11/01 attack.

    What is the signifigance of 9/11?

    http://mysite.verizon.net/resoxkyi/id12.html

    http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/wtc/index02.htm

    Does this sound too weird? Could our so called leaders really be into the occult?

    Well, there’s Bohemian Grove.
    http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html

    There is also The Order Of Skull And Bones.
    http://www.freedomdomain.com/skullbones.html

    http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Skull_Bones.htm

    http://www.bilderberg.org/skulbone.htm

    Anyone who talks about a “New World Order” must be crazy, right?

    New World Order Quotes
    http://www.freedomdomain.com/nwoquote.ht

  • Torfinn

    I haven’t posted a single link to single site because I don’t need any sites to spit my opinions.

    The PM articles are all pretty shoddy at best. I’ve already read them.

    MMm, yeah we couldn’t find the planes because they turned the transponders off…

    even though they were the only 3 things in the air not transponding. Comeon, seriously>?

    I don’t believe the whole pod under the plane crap, so I’m not going to bother with that.

    In fact, I’m just going to stop right here and not debunk the debunking as it’s likely a big waste of my time.

  • Andy

    I noticed that the link that I posted for New World Order quotes didn’t post the last letter so I’m posting it again.

    http://www.freedomdomain.com/nwoquote.htm

  • Andy

    So Nicholas responds by posting a link to the “Popular Mechanics” hit piece on the 9/11 Truth Movement. LOL! That article has already been exposed as being government propaganda. Michael Chertoff’s (Bush’s Director Of Homeland Security) cousin was one of the people behind it. Hearst Publishing has a history of yellow journalism. Why is is that “Popular Mechanics” has refused to debate 9/11 Truth researchers like Alex Jones?

    http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2005/070305chertoffscousin.htm

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/100806popularmechanics.htm

    Tell me Nicholas, why are you even here? Are you even a libertarian? Why do you trust the government? I’m distrustful of government as well as anyone who trusts government.

  • http://www.st911.org Julius Caesar

    You can listen to an idiot from Popular Mechanics here: http://www.911podcasts.com/display.php?vid=158

    Its Charles Goyette versus a man with 2/3 of his brain tied behind his back.

    Kind of sad, really.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Uh, oh, Popular Mechanics. There’s the argument ender, folks. If they said it, it can’t possibly be incorrect.

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    The PM article does make some good points but it still seems to miss out on somethings to me. The pancacking theory sounds a little out there to me, but then again so does the demolition of the buildings.
    Where it touches on building 7 seems off to me in my non expert opinion. The reason I say that is I still haven’t seen pictures of the damage to that building before hand and the fact that silverstien is quoted as saying the building was pulled and that was never touched on.
    Moving on to the pentagon they say there was wreckage but you really can’t see any in the pictures where is the photo evidence it refers to? The landing gear ripping out of the plane to punch a hole in the c ring again sounds as far fetched as a missle attack to me. finally on the pentagon why don’t they just release other camera footage to prove it was a plane?
    I am on the fence i am still making up my mind, i was happily asleep to the possibility untill a few months ago so I still wanna hear both sides.

  • Torfinn

    I’m rolling on the floor, that Podcast with the PM editor is freaking hilarious.

  • http://www.st911.org Julius Caesar

    Torfinn,

    And THEY wonder why people believe in conspiracy theories…

    Did you know that the PM moron on that podcast had all his other radio interviews canceled.

    Its not easy to defend the indefensible.

  • Torfinn

    Andy thanks a ton for pointing out this article it’s quite possibly one of the most reasonable logical arguments of any anti conspiracy debunking I’ve seen.

    http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/

    Astounding.

  • disinter

    Great post Michelle!!

  • paulie

    Paulie, Andy, and others are obvious plants put into the LP by the conspirators.

    Just me. I’ve known Andy for a couple of years, and he seems to be a true believer. If he’s undercover, he must be working for a different agency than me. Now that that’s settled….

    You know, the stale left-wing arguments against war didn’t work in 2004, Bush got re-elected.

    Not really, just another stolen selection. Ohio this time.

    Post 82 was already addressed in post 17. Strike two for Julian’s reading comprehension abilities.

    I’ll have a rum and coke.

  • Thought Crime

    I have done months of research on this and 1/3 to 2/3rds believe the inside job theory. Whether you’re MIHOP or LIHOP, one could make the philosophical argument that to let it happen, is to make it happen. In either MIHOP or LIHOP, there is criminal involvement by the US government.

    Those who live in the terrorism universe get their info from TV – in other words, government-issued news (like WMD reports). Those who live in the treason universe get their info from the alternative media. Everyone with a TV knows the official Bin Laden/hijackers story by now. If you haven’t already, find out about the story that TV doesn’t want you to see. It’s only a click away. Come for the conspiracy, stay for the truth.

    Because all these people can’t be crazy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholars_for_9/11_Truth#Members

  • Thought Crime

    Typo, my bad. Correction to above comment: 1/3rd to 1/2 believe MIHOP/LIHOP theory. (according to Zogby international, Scripps Survey Research Center, and CNN polls)

  • Thought Crime
  • Skippy dat bs

    Gotta go retro on Julian.You are absolutly right! Heck,it happens.Was watching a football game and realized “those Touch Downs…it happens” they dont have a plan in that huddle, heck thats just one big group hug.It raises morale.Julian your 60!!
    Ya have to have those Jedi skills developed from seeing many different faces over all those yrs(ur gut lie detector).All evidence aside, not only can you see it(the bullsh’t lies), you can smell it.
    Another thing, regarding Secret gov,the devil all the crazy stuff.I highly recomend you go to google video(free,free,free to watch),type in Nikola Tesla watch those biography/documentaries.Very educational, no holds bar.Then ask yourself how advanced science is?
    food for thought, the genious (N.TESLA) was 100+yrs ahead of the most notorious/famous of scientist.After that knowledge is downloaded to your grape, you’ll know the secret part of government hasnt a bright future planned.

  • Andy

    I don’t know what agency paulie is working for but they obviously don’t pay him very much.:)

  • http://imnotparanoiditstrue.blogspot.com/ Ryan B.

    after watching the movie does anyone else find it ironic that Bush has changed his PR to start calling the war on terror the war on Islamic Facism.

  • getreal

    Lots of moonbat logic here in my view. Irrationality on stilts! Sure Bush used this to expand his powers. That is what politicians do with every crisis (real or imaginary). I have watched the conspiracy addicts here misquote or invent facts or totally distort them. Any error in the “official” story is pounced upon while glaring falsehoods by the conspiracists are ignored. This thing smacks of cult-like thinking and I really hope these people are conservatives since having libertarians being this irrational would be humiliating.

  • paulie

    I don’t know what agency paulie is working for but they obviously don’t pay him very much.:)

    That’s just how I act around you, so I can borrow money to smoke more crack and bang hookers. Sometimes I get too high and have to get drunk to come down, and then I spill the beans. Whoops. Just because we’re evil doesn’t mean we can’t be incompetent, too.

    Besides, the big payout is coming after we do the EMP thing, unless they use me for a patsy and blame it on the LP. Then they can round y’all up :-)

  • paulie

    after watching the movie does anyone else find it ironic that Bush has changed his PR to start calling the war on terror the war on Islamic Facism.

    Not at all. He wants a monopoly on fascism, and the damn towel heads have to jump in the fascism game. Can’t have that, can we?

    Actually, “Islamo-fascists” may be a lot of things, but fascist is not one of them.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis46.html

  • paulie

    Lots of moonbat logic here in my view. Irrationality on stilts!

    Absolutely. It takes that to continue to defend the discredited 19 Arab conspiracy theory after all the ways it has been exposed.

    Sure Bush used this to expand his powers. That is what politicians do with every crisis (real or imaginary).

    Quite convenient that the “patriot act,” detailed plans for the Afghanistana and Iraq invasions, and the Afghan oil pipeline were all drawn up ahead of time. Also, check out the list of people who cancelled flights that day, such as Willie Brown. Hmmmm.

    I have watched the conspiracy addicts here misquote or invent facts or totally distort them.

    True, when applied to follower’s of the regime’s 19 Arab conspiracy theory.

    This thing smacks of cult-like thinking and I really hope these people are conservatives since having libertarians being this irrational would be humiliating.

    Don’t worry, that’s what regime cultists are, some knowingly, some not.

  • Julian

    The main argument used by the tinfoil hat wearers is the buildings collapsed straight down instead of falling over sideways. What a stupid argument to validate internal controlled explosives.

    It seems logical that gravity worked perfectly in forcing the buildings straight down. If the buildings were built top heavy tilting from perfect vertical, then I can see how they could fill over sideways. Otherwise, where are your brains, you dimwits?

    You people are the ones using controlled explosives, the power of words to totally discredit the libertarian movement. Are you plants of the Republicans or Democrats to make sure we look like lunatics? Now that is a plausible conspiracy theory, political saboteurs within our ranks.

  • Julian

    Correction

    “fill over sideways” should be “fall over sideways”.

  • Bruce Rideout

    Well Julian, you certainly have done a good job promoting Republicans and Democrats. Seems your form of logic says Libertarians should side with repiublicans and Democrats when it comes to the murder of 3000 American citizens.
    Further, unless you have at least read some of the 9/11 Commission Report, you have nto a clue how completely worthless it realy is. here was no investigation. Period. It was no more than a script written by a paid writer.
    Freedom requires due diligence on watching who is running the store. If the store owner is kiling many of their customers, seems the best folks to do the job of exposing it are Libertarians.
    So Julian maybe your eyes and the synapses in your brain cannot see obvious explosions on the many clear videos of the towers, but that does not prove they are not there. Ask the many firemen, policemen, reporters who were at ground zero. They all heard and saw explosions.
    Libertarians are obligated to remove a government guilty of treason and murde

  • Torfinn

    Julian, in your 60 years of Wisdom you seem to have not spent as much of it in physics as possible.

    A simple law, is that two objects in motion when coliding both exert the same force back onto eachother that is exerted upon them.

    If the buildings simply fell in on themselves, and miraculously maintained this central gravity you have to consider how likely it really is that the force of the top 20 floors collapsing would begin to cause the ENTIRE rest of the building to collapse, as one corner of the building was hit which can clearly be seen from several angles what would make you begin to believe that the building wouldn’t simply tip and the top would slide off?

    In all honesty, the more I see the videos the more I think people are crazy for swallowing the official theories.

    Moonbats. I mean, there are more than one structural analysis expert out there suggesting the official theory is nuts. I suppose you could know more than them though, about their expertise. Awesome.

  • Torfinn

    More to the point, observing Julians dubious theories why in the end aren’t we left with intact columns and hundreds of reinforced concrete plates at the bottom?

    Seriously people, in the history of building destructions this event is catagorically in stark contrast to any historical evidence ever shown. This type of destruction is not natural, at all. Building 7 even more abhorrent.

    If you can’t see that it’s not my job to enlighten you. Just stop trying to enlighten me with irrationalism. Honestly, condemning me for ignorance on subjects I know more about than you is really no way to plead your case. Explain something factual to change my mind I challenge you. If you can offer me anything conclusive I’m an open minded person I would love to be offered something EASIER to believe if only someone could provide the evidence to make that even semi palatable.

    Please. I’m begging for your help. Nicholas you can do better than the PM article, please do.

  • Julian

    Torfinn

    You challenge me on my physics knowledge. Qualify yourself. I’m waiting.

    I once shot a man with a .12 gauge shotgun 00 buck and blew his entire head to pieces. It was like hitting him with a baseball bat in the head. He did not fall over sideways, he fell straight to the ground to his knees and slumped over with what was left of his head almost touching the back of his ankles. He fell straight down.

    You watch too many action movies and westerns if you believe just because something is hit horizontally it must fall in the opposite direction horizontally. They all show shotgun blasts causing the victim being blown backwards.

    I do know a little about physics. I do not claim to be an expert as you are so you are just conjuring up bullshit about bullshit.

  • Julian

    Torfinn

    I know you will doubt the shotgun story. Go to

    http://www.combattrackerteam.org

    It was a combat killing.

  • paulie

    It seems logical that gravity worked perfectly in forcing the buildings straight down.

    How often does this happen in non-planned building collapses? Also, how many other structurally reinforced steel buildings have collapsed from fire, as is alleged in WTC 1 & 2?

    the power of words to totally discredit the libertarian movement. Are you plants of the Republicans or Democrats to make sure we look like lunatics?

    Right. About 2% self-identify as libertarians, including many who are not libertarian philosophically as well as those voting for major parties as a strategy, or not voting out of principle. Only about 0.1% are registered libertarians, and only about 1 in 30 of those are LP members. We would certainly look like lunatics if we appealed to 36% and growing. Uh huh. Totally discredit the LP and make us look like lunatics? Julian manages that very well on his own, with no help from us.

  • paulie

    “Building 7 was the third skyscraper to be reduced to rubble on September 11, 2001. According to the government, small fires leveled this building, but fires have never before or since destroyed a steel skyscraper.

    The team who investigated the collapse were not allowed access to the crime scene. By the time they published their inconclusive report, the evidence had been destroyed.

    Why did the government rapidly recycle the steel from the largest and most mysterious engineering failure in world history, and why has the media remained silent?”

    more at WTC7.net

  • paulie

    That’s

    http://wtc7.net/

    For those of you who are not too blinded by your personal stake in the success of Halliburton and the petrol corporations, or saddled with a memory of your role in the military-industrial and prison-industrial complex.

  • Torfinn

    I don’t doubt your shotgun story at all Julian. I’m not really impressed by it if that’s what you are going for. I know several vets that have killed dozens of people, most of them don’t boast of it with pride like you do so that leads me to assume you are probably a sociopath.
    If you are serious about the physics of the whole thing though, really all I’ve had is a few college level physics classes. Enough to be considered educated on the subject. I’m a physics enthusiast in my free time so I don’t really think that qualifies me for much.
    I know enough to say that bodies without heads react differently than skyscrapers reacting to internal heat damage.
    While I respect your service I’m going to have to say that doesn’t qualify for shit in regards to skyscraper demolition.

    I’m curious as to your opinion on the Gulf of Tonkin incident My friends and mentors who are veterans all have vastly varying opinions. I’d like to see if yours measures up, or if it’s just administrative apology

  • Torfinn

    After all, I’m confident in my own ability to blow someone’s head off with a shotgun, running or not.

    I don’t however believe I’d feel good about myself for doing it on behalf of someone else’s political motivations.

    Honestly, were I comfortable killing people on behalf of someone else’s financial political agenda I would’ve joined the military long ago.

    I have all the respect in the world for our service members, many of them being my best friends and relatives. I do believe in all honesty that a large number of them are misguided in their own self justifications for their actions.

    Right now I have to live with the suicides of friends, the kids who’s daddies come home and beat their moms and then kill themselves, the friends that come home missing legs not really certain of what they went for in the first place.

    While the heart that drives the character is noble, the actions themselves may or may not be. That’s for history to decide. That is, whoever writes it.

  • paulie

    “I don’t however believe I’d feel good about myself for doing it on behalf of someone else’s political motivations.”

    It’s really just a convenient way to be able to do it and get away with it. Unfortunately, it’s fun. So is raping and robbing. A lot of destructive things are fun, but not good.

    Really, it’s more honorable to be a mob hitman, or to go postal on a bunch of civilians freelance, although not by much.