TABC: “Nazi, Taliban, Gestapo”

We asked you to send your complaints to the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission for their preemptive arrests of drunk drivers and related usurpations of our rights. Apparently, it’s beginning to work. From NBC5:

“I’m getting all those same e-mails, the Nazi, Taliban, Gestapo e-mails,” said commission spokeswoman Carolyn Beck. “I don’t really understand the hateful outrage. I don’t understand, ‘Die in a fire.'”

That she doesn’t even understand the criticisms clearly indicates how far out in Lalaland she is. Some additional suggestions for your complaints include TABC stormtroopers, Lone Star Savak, Shiner Boch Stasi and the Killian’s (or even Killeen) KGB. Additionally, the Texas Central Committee Legislature may be taking up the issue.

Legislators who oversee the commission said they agree with the emphasis on public safety, but the program should be reviewed to check for abuses and to measure its effectiveness. […]

Rep. Kino Flores, chairman of the House Licensing and Administrative Procedures, said he plans to call a meeting next month to examine the commission’s work.

“We’re looking at it and we’re going to be looking at it: Are we going too far, or do we need to go further?” the Mission Democrat said.

The key problem is that the legislators don’t get this really simple concept called freedom.

Sen. John Whitmire, a Houston Democrat and member of both the powerful Senate Finance Committee and the Criminal Justice Committee that oversees the commission, defended the principle of in-bar citations.

“Even though a public drunk is not planning on driving, that could change in an instant,” he said. “There is certainly potential danger.”

With that line of reasoning, why not just arrest people at the store when they purchase a six-pack of beer? After all, they could potentially cause danger, too. In addition to the individual rights issues, there are additional questions which need to be addressed. Why isn’t a bar considered private property by Texas law? Why the hell does the TABC have a Homeland Security department?

We suggested it, and obviously you’re doing a great job at contacting the TABC thugs. It’s starting to work, so let’s keep up the telephone and e-mail campaign. You can e-mail their complaint line, call their complaint line at 888-843-8222, or call the TABC executive department at 512-206-3221. I’m adding John Whitmire to my correspondence list, too.

UPDATE: It seems that at least one organization has picked up on the neologism neoprohibitionist:

But the executive director of a national restaurant trade group Friday termed the sweeps “neo-prohibitionism,” which he blamed on the Irving-based group Mothers Against Drunk Driving. MADD issued a statement supporting the alcohol commission’s efforts.

posted by Stephen Gordon
  • Artus Register

    With that line of reasoning, why not just arrest people at the store when they purchase a six-pack of beer?

    Why, indeed. Why allow the bars to operate at all, as their stated purpose is to serve alcoholic beverages? Why allow cigarettes to be sold, or whatever food items do not promote health this week?

    Even though a television viewer isn’t planning on acting out the violence he may see on TV, that could change in an instant. Those must need banning, as well.

    Sen. John Whitmire is a clueless asshole, drunk with power and sounds–this is NOT hyperbole–EXACTLY like Goebbels. Only a dedicated tyrant excuses such tyranny as necessary to prevent “potential dangers.”

    Every step of life is fraught with potential dangers. This coproma would jail everyone in the state for their protection against potential danger if it wouldn’t mean the end of his tax-derived salary.

  • paulie cannoli

    Every personal is a potential criminal. If we just turn the State into one big jail, we won’t have to arrest anybody! Think of the saving in lives and the increased efficiency of police resources!

    “We’re looking at it and we’re going to be looking at it: Are we going too far, or do we need to go further?”

    Further, of course! Just because prohibition of alcohol didn’t work the first time doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try again. It was just an idea before its time.

    “They really DO hate us for our freedom”

  • paulie cannoli

    I meant every person.

  • Jana Lane

    How many people are killed or injured by drunk drivers in the United States every year? Do you think they have a right to drive the public streets, for which they helped to pay, in safety? People who want to get drunk can do so in the privacy of their own homes. However, it’s worth considering how many people are injured or abused in their own homes by family or friends who are drunk.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Jana,

    A good deal of these people weren’t driving. They were walking, taking cabs, limos, or in their hotel bars.

    “It’s worth considering” how many murderers there are with a first name that starts with the letter “J”. Maybe we should lock people like you up to save us from the potential murders.

  • http://superlativesuppository.blogspot.com/ SisterGeoff

    Jana the people arrested were not even walking at the time, they were sitting on bar stools. A number were even drinking in the bar of the hotel they were going to sleep in that night.

  • http://libertarianyouth.blogspot.com Nigel Watt

    The best was some state senator who, in response to an email from TABC giving “talking points” to defend the program, emailed them back “WHO IN THE DAMN HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?”

  • Stephen Gordon

    Nigel — I’m trying to find a copy of those talking points.

  • Jana Lane

    Stephen Gordon – I am not yet suggesting any solution for the problem of people being injured in their own homes by somebody who is drunk, I saying it would be helpful to know what the incidence is. I’ve never lived in Texas so I have no personal experience with this program but I thought it was intended to stop people who are drunk while they are driving.

  • paulie cannoli

    Hmmm. Taliban. That has a T in it too….

    Friday night drunk I wrote…under t-shirt ideas

    TABC – instead of Texas Alcohol and Beverage Control, Terrorist Alcohol and Beverage Control

    Tshirt: TABC logo or modified.

    bottom they really do hate us for our freedom

    back if you’re not with us, you’re with the terrorists

    Perhaps Taliban Alcohol and Beverage Control instead of Texas Alcohol and Beverage Control?

  • http://www.myspace.com/frankworley Frank Worley

    The concept of “preventive” law enforcement has been around for some time and is growing. But its important to keep in mind (which our friends in government obviously do not) that the road between “Prevention” and “Prohibition” isn’t a slippery slope, it is a sharp, deep cliff. Once you jump off, there’s no turning back.

    Frank

  • http://allencountylp.blogspot.com/ Mike Sylvester

    More people need to get involved with the political process at every level… We need to vote the current batch of politicians out of office and start again…

    We need to vote for candidates who will:
    1. Serve a maximum of two terms.
    2. Make the government SMALLER.
    3. Limit The Federal government to the intent of The Constitution and give a lot of power back to the fifty states.
    4. Remove many laws from the books.
    5. Enforce the laws that we keep and enforce them relentlessly.
    6. Seal the borders, deport all illegal aliens, and THEN triple legal immigration.
    7. Protect gun rights of Americans.
    8. Immediately start executing prisoners who are convicted of TWO separate crimes by TWO separate juries of their peers. I would give them one appeal and I would kill them within two years…

    My America would be a much better place…

    What do you think?

    Mike Sylvester

  • http://libertarianyouth.blogspot.com Nigel Watt

    Stephen, you can email the senator in question (Chris Harris) at http://www.senate.state.tx.us/75r/Senate/members/dist9/dist9.htm#email

    I’m doing so right after I post this.

  • Devious David

    Mike Sylvester, you are deeply misguided. You admit that there are inherent failures within the polictical process and government – especially law enforcement and criminal justice. But, then you suggest that such a system is capable of successfully and rightfully doing what is necessary to seal the borders and execute people for “crimes”.

    I won’t rip you too badly for the borders, but your position on the death penalty is extremely dangerous, foolhardy and naive. You and I don’t make or administer the laws or even commit the executions. You and I agree that the people who do are screwed up. You and I probably agree that juries are seldom informed nor enlightened. You and I probably agree that many laws and courts are structured to convict you. You and I probably agree that prosecutors overstep even the most remote semblance of ethics, sound judgement and propriety with overly aggressive misconduct. But you still want to use these systems to kill people!

  • http://superlativesuppository.blogspot.com/ SisterGeoff

    >8. Immediately start executing prisoners who are convicted of TWO separate crimes by TWO separate juries of their peers. I would give them one appeal and I would kill them within two years…

  • http://superlativesuppository.blogspot.com/ SisterGeoff

    This goes on the end of that one up there^

    Nothing says limited governmental power quite like the power to rapidly execute citizens.

  • http://libertarianyouth.blogspot.com Nigel Watt

    Personally, I think that the only crime which merits death is rape, and rape is so hard to prove that the death penalty can’t functionally be applied.

    Then again, I’m a bit of a wierdo, AND this is off-topic.

  • bac

    Depending on the level of prevention people want, the people will have to accept that some people will come to harm or all people’s actions will have to be controlled. When Patrick Henry said “Give me liberty or give me death”, he knew the responsibilty and consequences of having freedom. You or someone you know will be injured or killed by someone enjoying their freedom. Do you want to live with freedom knowing harm may come your way? Or do you want to live a long safe life with no freedom?

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    I am in agreement with about 75% of what is labeled as libertarian by doing an analysis of the past two months of posts and comments here. That gives me a grade of C. What does my agree quotient have to be to be considered a libertarian?

    I have joined the LRC to support abandonment or modification of the portions of libertarian platform I cannot align myself with. Once this is accomplished, I may agree 100%. Is that high enough to be a libertarian? Maybe I should just declare myself a libertarian and be done with it.

    I am outraged that any beauracrat can and will abuse power as being abused by the TABC. I don’t drink but love to ride motorcycles, build fast bikes and collect & shoot firearms. Just because I MIGHT break the speed limit or shoot someone, am I at risk that I may be arrested for just owning the motorcycles and firearms? I believe it won’t be long now if one can be arrested in a bar because he MIGHT drive after having a few drinks. Hey, TABC, kiss my ass!

  • Devious David

    Ironically, bac, the reality of living the long safe life with no freedom – from a political standpoint holds no water. Because if you sacrifice your freedom to your government, you will no longer be safe from your government. In fact, your government is a greater and more present threat to you than anything else, common thugs included.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen Gordon

    May we agree to disagree on some issues and stand together on those we are in agreement. That may get us further along down the road. Just agree to disagree with me in a cordial manner on my stand against anarchy and my position of supporting the war on Terror. Drugs, who cares? Let those fools kill themselves by ODing if they want. I really don’t care.

    Now, arresting people in bars for drinking, WOW! Is a bar a place to go to drink? Probably just as much as a Church is a place of worship. Maybe places of worship are next. Anything is possible under this scenario. How about a restaurant a place to eat? I doubt if you would be allowed to patronize for long if one constantly went to a restaurant, ordered water, and left. Is that what one is supposed to drink at a bar? How about a soda? I guess not if it has caffiene.

    Paulie Cannoli

    I do not believe there is much hope for us to meet on neutral ground. We are way too polarized in our beliefs.

  • paulie cannoli

    I won’t rip you too badly for the borders,

    paul) I will. But rather than do a whole bunch of typing again, see my discussion with Andy here.

    http://hammeroftruth.com/2006/02/15/libertarian-party-campaign-sites-update/#comments

    Julian) I have joined the LRC to support abandonment or modification of the portions of libertarian platform I cannot align myself with. Once this is accomplished, I may agree 100%. Is that high enough to be a libertarian? Maybe I should just declare myself a libertarian and be done with it.

    Paul) Maybe you should just declare yourself King of England? Why do you insist so badly that you need to be a libertarian, and furthermore that libertarians have to change what WE stand for to suit YOU?

    Can’t you find some other party to join, or start one? Libertarian ideas are based on principle. We oppose big government under all circumstances. If we change our stances, we are no longer libertarian.

  • Devious David

    Julian, you are a conservative… for the ten millionth time.

    If you were a member of the GOP, I am sure you wouldn’t appreciate a group of Democrats coming and invading your party with the stated intention of purging you, would you? Wait, that’s already happened over there with the neocons. Some people can’t take the lessons of history.

    Once your LRC crappola has taken place, then I will be where you are presently in with relation to the LP. Worse, even because I am willing to accept you, but you are unwilling to accept me.

    You seem to be out of character to be coming to the logical conclusion that if people at a bar can be hauled off for being there, let alone drinking (or not), then logically numerous other abuses could and likely would by extension. There may be hope for your conservative ass yet. I won’t hold my breath.

  • paulie cannoli

    Julian, incidentally, I am still interested in an answer and I believe I’m not the only one here who is.

    In what ways, exactly, do you disagree with with conservatives and/or Republicans? Please be specific.

    I think you and the LRC would make a good fit with the RLC (republican liberty caucus) since you seem to share a lot of ideas with them.

    If the Republican Party isn’t good enough for you, maybe you and the LRC can go re-start the Reform Party. If you want reform, vote Reform!

  • Devious David

    Its funny… People from New Jersey come down south for the weather and less congestion. As soon as they are down here, they immediately set out to turn the place into a New Jersey clone. When it’s happened, they complain and make sure they complain THE LOUDEST!

  • Devious David

    Well said once again, Paulie. And constructive suggestions that I didn’t think of. Because I like ripping conservatives too much.

  • paulie cannoli

    I do not believe there is much hope for us to meet on neutral ground. We are way too polarized in our beliefs.

    Oh? I thought you just said we agree on 75%. That should be enough basis to at least hold a conversation.

    I don’t disagree with Steve on too much, so if you can talk to him, you should be able to talk to me.

    What you don’t seem to understand is that if you give government the power to do the things you want, it will ALWAYS do the stupid, crazy things that piss you off at the same time. Once the tool exists, it will always be used – and not just by you and people you like, either.

    That’s why it’s important to have a party out there that always opposes big government.

    Government is like cancer; you can’t just cut out some of it. It’s like a disease; you can’t just take part of the antibiotic treatment course.

    war is the health of the state

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    This is fun. Looks like I have riled Devious David and Paulie Cannoli. I am not a Republican. I am staying in the LP. Too bad for both of you. Move over, get out of the way and be bystanders. The LP is on its way to being a viable third party and both of you are going to be left in the dust sucking your thumbs trying to figure out what the hell just happened.

    Good bye and good luck to both of you. Sounds to me like both of you need to find other parties to join such as the actual Anarchy Party.

    Are your type the reason libertarians have been marganilized for years? Time for change and time to win, win, win. Libertarians in office can create change. Libertarians defeated are just a bunch of disgruntled losers bitching. Let’s win and quit bitching.

  • paulie cannoli

    With government, it doesn’t matter if you want to reduce it 75%. If you want to increase the other 25% that’s the part that will always get done.

    When Reagan came in to power there was a lot of anti-government rhetoric. He claimed he was going to cut the welfare state. The Democrats in Congress were going to cut the military. The compromise? Reagan went for continued growth in the welfare state and the Democrats agreed to his military expansion. And that is what happened again and again – the Gingrich “Republican Revolution”, the Bush Regime – as long as you have a part of government you want to expand, your opponens will agree to expand it so long as you agree to expand the part that appeals to them.

    The nature of government is always to grow. Libertarian “reformers” who want us to stand for increasing some aspects of government – in Julian’s case, the worst part – are more dangerous than other statists because they want to destroy the only force working against this trend.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    It is the 25% we do not agree on that fires you off. You want to run me off and be done with it because:

    1. I support the War of Terror. I believe the more violence and the uglier we are with them, the better. I am a combat vet and was and am fully capable of taking a life. That just riles the hell out of you.

    2. Convicted felons should not own firearms. If they are pardoned, different story. You must be a convicted felon and jealous of me because I am not.

    3. I believe in God. I suspect you believe in nothing and hold people in contempt that do believe in God.

    4. There must be some order and government serves a purpose. I believe the least government to provide basic government services, the best government. You believe in the total absence of government. You are an anarchist.

    5. I hold child molestors and pedophiles in utter contempt and believe if there is any crime that deserves the death penalty, it is pedophilia and child abuse.

  • paulie cannoli

    I am not a Republican.

    You haven’t told us why. Still wondering.

    I am staying in the LP. Too bad for both of you.

    And the rest of the world.

    Move over, get out of the way and be bystanders.

    No.

    The LP is on its way to being a viable third party and both of you are going to be left in the dust sucking your thumbs trying to figure out what the hell just happened.

    No way. We’ll fight you, and if you win, we’ll find other vehicles. We’re the ones that built this party and now you want to steal it. Go start your own, asshole. Don’t think you’ll steal our party without a fight, and here’s hoping you’ll be the one left sucking your thumb.

  • paulie cannoli

    Good bye and good luck to both of you. Sounds to me like both of you need to find other parties to join such as the actual Anarchy Party.

    This is it.

    Are your type the reason libertarians have been marganilized for years?

    No.

    Time for change and time to win, win, win. Libertarians in office can create change.

    You might get in office, but you’re not going to create any change.

    Libertarians defeated are just a bunch of disgruntled losers bitching.

    Not at all. We win in more subtle ways and pave the ground for eventual victory.

    Let’s win and quit bitching.

    Win what? If we don’t stand for liberty there’s a zero per cent chance of winning.

  • Devious David

    People such as myself are not the reason that the LP has been losing for years. The reasons are myriad, but include the fact that most people are educated in government schools. The media has a vested interest in gaining access via government complicity. The electoral/voting system. Ballot access laws. Fraud. Government sponsored campaign money. Campaign laws. People like you. Lack of incentive for third parties (unlimited government & fiat currency are “working” now). I could go on.

    But none of that matters to you. You want to dispose of all principle, despite the obvious logical and historical arguments for not doing so. Typical conservative. You want to use the government to impose your own arbitrary views upon the rest of the population. And you think that it can be done by negotiating though established political practice. Fool!

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    6. The death penalty serves a purpose. One cannot be a repeat offender if he is put to death. Also, society and families have their revenge. I suspect you oppose the death penalty.

    7. I want drugs legalized for different reasons than you. I want them legalized and provided at no cost to all addicts to get rid of them by allowing them to kill themselves doing drugs. If you believe in evolution, it is one way of culling the weak and the fittest survive and propogate.

    8. Ditto for alcohol.

    9. The Constitution is what it is and means what it says. It is not a living document. I suspect you don’t really give a damn about the Constitution, what it means to be free, and our responsibilities as citizens to our nation. You are an anarchist so to you it is just a “damn piece of paper with a bunch of words”. To me, it represents a way of life for all of us to get along in this great nation.

    10. I am a pragmatic optomist. I suspect you are a pessimist with no hope.

  • http://chrisbennettfromillinois.blogspot.com/ Chris Bennett

    I see that the anarcho-fascist are at it again. And Paulie, your type destroyed any credibility the LP has had in the past. It hard working motherfuckers like me who built the LP. It’s the anarcho-fascist like YOU who drove away some of the brilliant hard working minds in the party. So either allow the LP to be an open tent for achieving freedom or start your own fucking Anarcho-goosestepping-fascist-non-inclusive-bullshit-flaming-jackass party.

  • paulie cannoli

    1. I support the War of Terror. I believe the more violence and the uglier we are with them, the better.

    Paul) That right there is 100% proof positive that you are not a libertarian.

    I am a combat vet and was and am fully capable of taking a life. That just riles the hell out of you.

    Paul) Not at all. And I’m fully capable of it too.

    2. Convicted felons should not own firearms. If they are pardoned, different story. You must be a convicted felon and jealous of me because I am not.

    Paul) I’ve already explained in detail why this fallacy is inconsistent with libertarianism.

    http://hammeroftruth.com/2006/03/24/save-st-petersburgs-vigilante-hero/#comments

    I’ve already told you I’m a convicted felon, so that proves you weren’t reading.

    And I’m not jealous of you at all. If anything, I pity you.

    3. I believe in God. I suspect you believe in nothing and hold people in contempt that do believe in God.

    Completely false. cont

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Chris Bennett

    Well said. I say the time is ripe for libertarians to win elections and implement change. Smaller government is better government. No government is anarchy and will never work. It is preservation of freedom and reestablishment of the freedoms we have now lost that is important, not the total destruction of this great nation and with it, the Constitution.

  • Devious David

    1. The more violence and uglier “we” are with them, the more so our government and others will be with us. Most people are capable of taking a life. You are not some Rambo badass. You are an old cantankerous bastard with a bad back.

    2. Look at all the laws that are felonies and how screwed up the criminal justice system is. The ultimate gun control is just make everyone a felon.

    3. I can’t answer for paulie, but I beleive in God, but your attack here is the work of a conservative who detests all who do not bow before their god.

    4. Government – The State, anyway, is utter chaos and destruction. It is the bane of civilized society. “Basic government services” is intended to mean whatever you want it to mean – a common statist ploy.

    5. You presume that… no wait, you want to put up a strawman that suggests the people like us want child molestation to be allowable and even encouraged. You know that isn’t true. Being disingenuous is a conservative tactic. You are a conservative.

  • paulie cannoli

    (cont) I believe in God too, but I do hold people in comtempt that want to govern in the name of God.

    That’s what Lucifer was kicked out of heaven for – trying to usurp God’s place. Without knowing it, you are really a worshipper of Satan.

    Satan controls all earthly governments. If he did not, how could his offer too give control over all of them been a real temptation? Jesus would have been in a position to know whether the offer was real.

    http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/anarchist-jesus.html

  • paulie cannoli

    I see that the anarcho-fascist are at it again.

    Sorry, how am I a fascist?

    And Paulie, your type destroyed any credibility the LP has had in the past.

    Disagreed.

    It hard working motherfuckers like me who built the LP.

    Me and most of the hardcore activists I’ve known in the LP have been anarchists.

    It’s the anarcho-fascist like YOU who drove away some of the brilliant hard working minds in the party.

    You must be confusing me with someone else.

    So either allow the LP to be an open tent for achieving freedom

    The achieveing freedom is the part that won’t happen when you open your tent to people like Julian.

    or start your own fucking Anarcho-goosestepping-fascist-non-inclusive-bullshit-flaming-jackass party.

    I’m far from a fascist, but I already have a party. If you’re a member, you signed a pledge. You either didn’t know what it meant or commited fraud.

  • paulie cannoli

    4. There must be some order and government serves a purpose.

    Forcible government serves the few at the expense of the many. It’s only purpose, for most of us, is to mess up our lives.

    I believe the least government to provide basic government services, the best government.

    Why should people be forced to deal with your monopoly for those services? What if they don’t want those services, why should they pay for them?

    You believe in the total absence of government.

    I believe in the total absence of forcible government.

    You are an anarchist.

    Congratulations, you finally got something right!

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Chris Bennett

    I have managed to get a couple of anarchists stuttering and sputtering. I love it when we can get them to come out of the closet and show their true facist, lock-step colors. How oxymoronic can they be when they insist on no government but it will be my way of no government or else.

    They have completely lost their credibility tonight. I knew that with anger on their part would come stupidity.

  • Devious David

    6. Wait until political activism is a felony and people get the death penalty. The death penalty is subject to abuse and is frequently.

    7. You want drugs to be legalized because you smoke pot for your bad back and other chronic problems you beleive you have. It is for your own selfish purposes.

    8. Ditto for alcohol.

    9. Sounds good. Government should conform to The Constitution in the most restrictive interpretation. But 200+ years of Constitutionalism should have taught you that it is not a realistic expectation to place upon The State.

    10. Speaking on my personal behalf, I take a great deal of pleasure in understanding that people are going to get what they deserve. The more rapidly and harshly it takes place, the better in my view. People could fix it now with (relatively) minimum pain, but they would rather worry about their “bling-bling” and “American Idol”. I really hate “American Idol”.

  • paulie cannoli

    6. The death penalty serves a purpose. One cannot be a repeat offender if he is put to death. Also, society and families have their revenge. I suspect you oppose the death penalty.

    Paul) I oppose the government death penalty, because I think government is incompetent to admminister justice. By government in this sentence I mean forcible (monopoly) government.

    Revenge is a never-ending cycle, and one can’t correct a miscarriage of justice if the wrongly accused is dead.

  • http://chrisbennettfromillinois.blogspot.com/ Chris Bennett

    I believe in God. However I don’t believe in forcing others to worship my God.

    2. I am pro-life. Abortion is wrong. The taxpayers should not be paying for abortions.

    3. Until the welfare state is abolished we need some limits on immigration. Speed up the process for them to come to this country legally!

    4. Restore all rights of those who have been incarcerated after they have done their time.

    5. Decriminalixe drugs! Let’s start with marijuana and move from there.

    6. I am against the death penalty. I’d rather see a murderer free than incarcerate an innocent man. Face it julian our court system is flawed in many areas.

    7. Restore the Constitution. Add some amendments like a balanced budget and the right to privacy.

    8. Less government is a hell of a lot better than anarchy.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    Sorry, but I am here to stay. If you cannot live with changes within the Party for the better, it may well be time for you to say your good byes. Maybe you can win a nonelection in a noncountry with no government once you and your anarchist comrades form a nonexistant party since you do not believe in any order or the existance of any type of organization.

  • paulie cannoli

    7. I want drugs legalized for different reasons than you.

    paul) I don’t really care why you want them legalized, so long as you do.

    I suspect you don’t really give a damn about the Constitution,

    If it was ever implemented, it would be better than the current system. However, it was always an experiment doomed to failure. Limiting government is like cutting out part of the cancer or only taking some of the antibiotics.

    what it means to be free,

    Is what I’m all about.

    and our responsibilities as citizens to our nation.

    Why should I have any responsibility to your gang of thieves, liars and murderers?

    You are an anarchist so to you it is just a “damn piece of paper with a bunch of words”.

    For the most part, since it hasn’t done shit.

  • paulie cannoli

    To me, it represents a way of life for all of us to get along in this great nation.

    The USSR had a constitution too. Didn’t work there either.

    10. I am a pragmatic optomist. I suspect you are a pessimist with no hope.

    Actually, that’s one thing we agree on. I’m an optimist too.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Chris Bennett

    You and I are very, very close in our vision of libertarianism and our personal belief system. I am open minded and can be persuaded to rething some of my positions concerning the death penalty and restoring rights to convicted felons. I might add a few conditions on those points but this is not the forum to go into that type of detail. I guess Paulie Cannoli and Devious David will now try to run you out of their “Anarchy” party that they try to call the Libertarian Party.

  • Devious David

    Chris, your positions are reasonable, I won’t throw you into the fire over them. We can argue over the finer points and semantics, in particular number 3 and 7, which is an utter waste of time but a great idea no less. Number 8 would read well if it said that less government is better than more government. From your moderate position, let’s presume that we got to what you now beleive to be the ideal level of government. Have you already made up your mind that we should continue to use The State to achieve governance? Or do you need greater incremental “proof” to come to a conclusion?

    I don’t understand where you come up with the hostile facist references, however, when that is clearly not the case. Especially since your views are closer to mine (and presumably paulie’s) than they are to Julians (he’s a conservative).

  • paulie cannoli

    J) I have managed to get a couple of anarchists stuttering and sputtering. I love it when we can get them to come out of the closet and show their true facist, lock-step colors.

    P) Funny, you and Chris seem like you are the ones stuttering and sputtering. You haven’t shown how we’re fascist, although in many ways you are.

    J) How oxymoronic can they be when they insist on no government but it will be my way of no government or else.

    P) What’s oxymoronic? I’m not proposing any type of forcible government.

    J) They have completely lost their credibility tonight.

    P) LOL. With who?

    J) I knew that with anger on their part would come stupidity.

    P) I’m not angry, just bemused. As for stupidity, you’ve cornered the market.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Devious David

    Are you a pacifist? Are you a hedonist?

  • paulie cannoli

    Sorry, but I am here to stay. If you cannot live with changes within the Party for the better, it may well be time for you to say your good byes.

    The changes you propose would be for the worse. Sorry, I’m here to stay too. And I don’t have to commit fraud to do it.

    you do not believe in any order or the existance of any type of organization.

    False. I do believe in order and organization. Just not a forcible monopoly.

  • paulie cannoli

    Chris,

    3. Until the welfare state is abolished we need some limits on immigration. Speed up the process for them to come to this country legally!

    paul) Freedom can’t be conditional. You may as well say that until we abolish drug laws we have to have more gun control.

    7. Restore the Constitution. Add some amendments like a balanced budget and the right to privacy.

    paul) Have you ever read Lysander Spooner?

    8. Less government is a hell of a lot better than anarchy.

    paul) That’s like saying less cancer is a hell of a lot better than being cured.

  • paulie cannoli

    Oh and Chris, we agree on most of the rest.

  • Devious David

    It’s unfortunate that “reformers” want people like us out. I am more than happy to have them contribute, so long as the “contribution” is not my ouster. Maybe the party should just get it over with and all principled people revolt and leave. I want to see what the know-it-alls do when they no longer have a compass or a scapegoat. They would be hard pressed to blame anyone but themselves. The best scenario to happen would actually be for them to win (they wouldn’t) because they would just be Democrats and Republicans by another name. It would have all been for nothing but show. Best of all liberty and libertarianism would be given a bad name or no name at all that describes anything meaningful. That would be good too. Because I want people to get what they deserve more than anything, and liberty is not among them.

  • paulie cannoli

    Julian

    I am open minded and can be persuaded to rething some of my positions concerning the death penalty and restoring rights to convicted felons.

    I am optimistic that some day you’ll be a real libertarian. Hopefully you won’t fuck up the LP too much before that happens.

    I guess Paulie Cannoli and Devious David will now try to run you out of their “Anarchy” party that they try to call the Libertarian Party.

    Because that is what it happens to be called, since “reformers” like you already once fucked up what we used to be called (liberal) – now it means socialist-lite.

    As for running y’all off…that’s mostly because you want to run us off.

  • paulie cannoli

    Are you a pacifist?

    paul) No.

    Are you a hedonist?

    paul) Not exclusively, so technically, no.

  • Devious David

    Paulie, it seems to me that anti-statists like you and I versus statists like Chris only have one fundamental disagreement. I would of course chalk Chris’s statism up to naivette.

    Julian, what on earth makes you think I am a pacifist? I deny the charge. And as for hedonist… I am not sure what triggered that reaction. But it did give me a small revelation of little significance. I suppose some of my most cynical viewpoints could almost be on the far, distant fringes of hedonism in a sense. But I am by no means libertine.

  • Devious David

    I can certainly understand why Julian would want to run us off, he’s a damned conservative.

    But for a person such as Chris, it makes no sense. Of course it makes no sense that he is a statist too, but it is not constructive for moderates to hate and ouster radicals.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Guys, you have hijacked this post.

    Julian, please take your son up on his offer to be an editor.

    But all of you, please realize that America as we know it was a sort of prison for convicts, political or otherwise, from the start. America became The Land of the Free because of rebellion, and, today, we are also rebels. The group that we rebel against is so much worse than those who are drinking and may commit a crime. We are rebelling against a government elected by those asleep at the wheel. That this post is an issue proves that we are screwed if we do not stop this internal fighting. Stop bickering as if you were in a quilting circle rather than a fight for liberty. We really do not have time for this bullshit.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    You are still pissed off because you are a convicted felon. What did you do? You are probably one of thousands of convicted felons that thought you were smarter and better than “them” and would never be caught.

    No, I am probably wrong about the above statement. I’ll bet you are like almost all convicted felons, you really did not do the crime and were framed. I apologize. I should have known you were really innocent and was convicted by the pigs lying and the DA railroading you and the jury being crooked and loaded in the favor of the DA or was it you just had a sorry defense attorney that did not do a good job? Have I missed any of the pat excuses for being a convicted felon who is really innocent?

    I just know it is terrible but you are an anarchist and hate the system so you cannot even go ask for a pardon because that would be against your anarchist principles.

  • paulie cannoli

    DD,

    It’s unfortunate that “reformers” want people like us out. I am more than happy to have them contribute, so long as the “contribution” is not my ouster. Maybe the party should just get it over with and all principled people revolt and leave.

    P) Not without a fight, but if it comes to that I would propose taking over the Natural Law Party. I like the name, and the original maharishi-ite ideas mixed with ZAP/NAP could help bridge the gap with green-leaning anti-statists. I’m also for starting a Libertarian Caucus to take over the Green Party. There’s no fundamental conflict between ZAP/NAP and the Green Ten Key Values, just with the current Green party Platform.

  • http://chrisbennettfromillinois.blogspot.com/ Chris Bennett

    All I have to say is…I’ll fight for my brand of freedom and you all can fight for yours and see who succeeds in the end. We can not keep advocating that we abolish government overnight. This is the reason why Libertarians do NOT get elected! The public will NOT go for it. Why don’t we start on issues that we already have the public agreeing with us on? We can’t win all the battles but if we pick and choose them wisely we can be more effective.

    Anarchists still piss me off.

  • paulie cannoli

    Michelle,

    Guys, you have hijacked this post.

    Sorry. maybe you could move these comments to a new thread.

    Julian,

    that’s a whole lot of false assumptions, as usual, as regards to my personal history. thanks for playing.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Michelle Shinghal

    Go to the top and read the comments. Who hijacked this post? I believe it was the anarchists.

  • paulie cannoli

    Julian

    1) None of your business what I was convicted of.
    2) It was either something I thought wasn’t legitimately a crime, in which case I am not sorry I did it -or-
    I did something wrong, which is my fault. I did plenty of that in my life. Most times by far I did not get caught.
    3) I didn’t think I was necessarily smarter than them and always knew there was a risk. I’ve always been a gambler by nature.
    4) I had an excellent public defender, a rarity. I got time served (two and a half weeks in the county) and unsupervised probation with no travel restrictions. Not bad for a felony. The judge wasn’t bad either. Asking for a pardon would be a waste of time.

    But I know plenty of real-life cases which fit your sarcastic remarks. Plenty of innocent people get railroaded all the time and a lot of dumb criminals think they are really smart and will never get caught.

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  • Michelle Shinghal

    I do not mean to spoil the fun, but this is about a real life, bonafide attack on real people doing what it is they should in a bar and being arrested for it. Let’s stay on topic and try to provide a remedy for the ailment.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Michelle, I just created two new threads.

  • paulie cannoli

    Chris,

    “All I have to say is…I’ll fight for my brand of freedom and you all can fight for yours and see who succeeds in the end.”

    OK.

    “We can not keep advocating that we abolish government overnight.”

    Rome wasn’t built in a day, but it can be sacked in a day.

    “This is the reason why Libertarians do NOT get elected!”

    There’s lots of other reasons.

    “Why don’t we start on issues that we already have the public agreeing with us on? We can’t win all the battles but if we pick and choose them wisely we can be more effective.”

    I agree to that to some extent. I’m all for tactical victories. However, some issues are good to bring to the public’s attention and hope they become more popular over time. Which sometimes happens.

    “Anarchists still piss me off.”

    Minarchists still piss me off, but I’m willing to work with them sometimes.

  • paulie cannoli

    Michelle,

    I do not mean to spoil the fun, but this is about a real life, bonafide attack on real people doing what it is they should in a bar and being arrested for it. Let’s stay on topic and try to provide a remedy for the ailment.

    You’re right, but, in a sense…how did we start with the Constitution and end up with this? In a sense, our argument does relate to these real life examples, since the fundamental threads connecting them are important to understand. There are lots of fires to put out, but unless we understand their cause and nature it’s a losing fight – there will just be more and more and ultimately we’ll burn.

    As for this particular fire, see my comment #10 for T-shirt ideas. And as for who hijacked the thread, sorry for my part in it. Looks to me like it started with Mike Sylvester’s off topic comment #12.

  • http://warcriminal.freeservers.com Sol

    Hey everyone, the TABC toll free snitch line at 888-843-8222 works from outside TX and apparently is staffed 24 hrs a day. So good libertarian minded, freedom loving people can call from all over the US 24 hours a day and voice their outrage! Spread this info far and wide and let freedom loving people give these bastards a lesson in freedom!

    I just called the TABC snitch line and some flunky answered. I told him he was an accessory to police state tyranny and he said he didn’t work for the TABC but was a “college student” who answered an annoymous TABC hotline. Then he swore at me and hung up on me. Typical “public servant.”

  • Mike G

    …and someone at this board called ME a nutcase for using a Nazi reference? uh huh.

    >>”I’m getting all those same e-mails, the Nazi, Taliban, Gestapo e-mails,”

  • Mike G

    I wonder if anyone sent an email stating “Im gonna burn your Confederate States Of America flag”?

    I bet the TABC is having a field day with the Spring-breakers at South Padre Island, Texas.

    I dont know why our government is so interested in protecting Americans from Americans, when they should be protecting us from the rest of the world. That shouldve been done in the days before 09-11-01 but hey conservative values are much more important than putting food on the table, keeping a roof over your head, or keeping personal liberties and freedoms.

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  • GreginOz

    What a great thread! Ah, Libertarians…co-operating? HA! It’s a bit like herding cats. The State killed over 200,000,000 people last century, what a record. I’d only be comfortable at the top of a vertical political system…as it is no-one on the ladder above me is wearing nappies. I always liked the phrase ‘Libercontrarian’ as I almost reflexively take a position opposite The State. Am wondering ‘though whether a purist Libo should EVER evince patriotism? Are not draping oneself in a flag and Libo principles mutaully exclusive? “Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practise” Rothbard. Here is my email to the TABC http://www.bakelblog.com/nobodys_business/2006/03/minority_report.html#comments

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