Stan Jones of Montana for US Senate

www.mtlp.org/jones/

posted by disinter
  • Dave

    I wish him the best for being so brave to not care what other people think and describe some possible scary futures we are facing with the way this country is going, but I think he needed to do it with more tact in order to have a positive effect. That is very clear from his presentation and I am shocked he did it the way he did.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Whew! That was heavy stuff. He just won the Constitution Party vote in Montana, which is actually significant. Good for 2 to 3%.’

    My prediction, Jones will get a larger percentage than any other Libertarian US Senate candidate in the Nation, and will throw the election to Democrat Tester.

    Burns has made zero attempt to reach out to libertarians in Montana, so he almost deserves this shallacking.

    It will be interesting to watch the network talking head on Election Night reporting “and 6% for Libertarian Stan Jones in Montana…”

  • Derrick

    Money Quote 1: “The secret organizations of the world power elite are no longer secret. They have planned and are now leading us into a one-world communist government.”

    Money Quote 2: “We will have a new currency: the Amero. And a new constitution, modeled on the Soviet Union’s constitution.”

    Money Quote 3: “You will have a national ID card with a radio frequency chip in it. That’s already law in America and will be implemented by May 2000.”

  • Derrick

    This dude is talking some absolutely batshit crazy, wingnut stuff. This is a prime example of why we don’t get taken seriously. For every viable candidate like Bill Peirce, there are two wackjob conspiracy theorists running under the LP banner. These candidates do heavy and irreparable (sp?) damage to the party every time they speak in public.

    This type of thing is an absolute embarrassment, and it has got to stop.

  • disinter

    He meant to say May 2008.

  • disinter

    Derrick,

    Not sure about the other stuff, but the National ID is a fact.

  • Andy

    “This dude is talking some absolutely batshit crazy, wingnut stuff. This is a prime example of why we don’t get taken seriously.”

    I call it speaking the truth. If you don’t realize this then you haven’t done your homework. Instead of making snide remarks, how about researching what he talked about and finding out whether or not it’s true?

  • Rick Rajter

    National ID in 2008 is a fact
    NAFTA/CAFTA/FTAA are facts
    Amero is in the works.
    The super highway is in the works.
    America already practices all 10 planks of the communist manifesto.

    Wingbat? Nutjob? He stuck to the facts Derrick.

  • Rick Rajter

    Andy,

    If it’s not on CNN or in time magazine, people are generally clueless.

    Then again, those that read nothing but are as well!

  • DAP

    Wow. What an idiot.

  • DAP

    Mike Nelson: How is this different than the “fear mongering” you tin-foil hat types accuse the GOP of?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Here is the real deliniation of Libertarians. Not left vs. right; but crazy vs. sane.

    All the communist talk… Give me a fucking break. Like the powers that be have some altruistic motive to crush capitalism and bring about a worker’s paradise. Communism strives for a stateless society, totally antithetical to what this nutjob is talking about.

    In reality, this guy is the commie. He’s anti-trade, anti-free market. You know what I call a highway stretching from Mexico to Canada? Good for commerce. Good for freedom.

    Look at the comments above. Half of them are in support for this idiot, and the other half recognize him for the paranoid nutcase that he is. Instead of the non-initiation pledge, Libertarian candidates should take a mandatory psychiatric evaluation and sign an “I’m not crazy” pledge.

    This guys is a true embarassment and a discredit to the third-party movement. Just another excuse not to invite credible candidates to the debates. Good job. Join the fucking CP!!!

  • Andy

    “All the communist talk”¦ Give me a fucking break. Like the powers that be have some altruistic motive to crush capitalism and bring about a worker’s paradise. Communism strives for a stateless society, totally antithetical to what this nutjob is talking about.”

    Communism was FUNDED by the big bankers. Communism is NOT an idealogy for the poor to create a worker’s paradise but is REALLY meant to con the people back into serfdom.

    “In reality, this guy is the commie. He’s anti-trade, anti-free market. You know what I call a highway stretching from Mexico to Canada? Good for commerce. Good for freedom.”

    He’s not anti-free trade, he’s anti-global government and anti-corporate fascism.

    I’d suggest that you do some more research. Read G. Edward Griffin’s excellent book “The Creature From Jekyell Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve” which is available at http://www.realityzone.com. He gets into all of this stuff in that book. There are other sources but that’s start.

  • Andy

    “Look at the comments above. Half of them are in support for this idiot, and the other half recognize him for the paranoid nutcase that he is.”

    People who think that he’s a “parinoid nutcase” are people who haven’t done their homework.

  • disinter

    I must agree with Rick, all 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto are already practiced in the United States.

    I suppose the obvious is a bit too much for UA to take.

    I am having a hard time figuring out how a superhighway built by means of theft (eminent domain) is “good for freedom”…

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Andy.. I own that book, but I haven’t had a chance to read it.

    So Marx was a tool of the bankers? Lenin? Who and when exactly? Is Fidel a tool of the bankers? Was Che? Mao? Pol Pot? Kim Jung Il?

    Bankers = not the bad guys. I swear, your contempt for free trade and capitalism makes me wonder if you’re not a secret commie spy.

    Communists = misguided hippies and angry old college professors.

    Dictators = bad guys… Communist, fascist, Islamic, or what have you.

    Right-wing nut jobs running as Libertarian Party candidates = the real bad guys who disgrace and discredit legitimate campaigns and candidates.

  • Andy

    The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve
    http://realityzone.stores.yahoo.net/creature.html

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Good for freedom because it allows people to travel more easily. Eminent domain for the purpose of road construction is constitutional, if inconveniant.

  • Andy

    “Andy.. I own that book, but I haven’t had a chance to read it.

    So Marx was a tool of the bankers? Lenin? Who and when exactly? Is Fidel a tool of the bankers? Was Che? Mao? Pol Pot? Kim Jung Il?

    Bankers = not the bad guys. I swear, your contempt for free trade and capitalism makes me wonder if you’re not a secret commie spy.

    Communists = misguided hippies and angry old college professors.

    Dictators = bad guys”¦ Communist, fascist, Islamic, or what have you.”

    Man, you’ve got a lot to learn. Yeah, the big bankers are bad guys and they’ve got nothing to do with the free market. Communists are not just a bunch of misguided hippies and angry old college professors.

    I’ve got no contempt for capitalism as long as you are talking about free market capitalism. I’ve also got no comtempt for free trade as long as you are talking about REAL free trade.

  • disinter

    UA – Do you support the Federal Reserve “big bankers”?

  • Andy

    “Good for freedom because it allows people to travel more easily. Eminent domain for the purpose of road construction is constitutional, if inconveniant.”

    Just because eminent domain is legal for road construction it doesn’t make it good. Also, examine the people who are in charge of this. This is not good, it might sound good, but it’s a trap. Global government is the REAL agenda here.

  • Derrick

    Dondero: Who cares if he scored the 2% Constituion Party vote? He was included in the debates and had an audience of thousands – possibly tens of thousands. He could have passionately addressed issues of importance to voters and scored 27% support from D’s and R’s. But instead he rambled about “secret organizations” and “radio frequency chips”, alienating 99.85% of the people watching. All while the words ‘Libertarian candidate’ appeared below him on the screen.

    Mike Nelson: Even if he’s right about any of that stuff, he still alienated 99.85% of the people watching. All while the words ‘Libertarian candidate’ appeared below him on the screen.

    Andy, Rick Rajter: Get real. Just because there is discussion of something (such as the Amero) doesn’t mean it’s a done deal. And, all of that put together doesn’t equal a “one-world communist government” orchestrated by the “secret organizations of the world power elite.”

  • Graham

    Is this that Blue Guy?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Yeah, I have a lot to learn. You really showed me.

    I live on Planet Earth. You might want to consider visiting sometime.

  • Graham

    If so, that’s really “nutjob” enough for most people not to look past to what he actually has to say.

  • disinter

    Good for freedom because it allows people to travel more easily.

    A lot of the things the government mandates with the use of force makes things easy for some. So you are in favor of theft by force now? How is this good for freedom?

    Eminent domain for the purpose of road construction is constitutional, if inconveniant.

    And it is theft.

  • Tom Bryant

    Yes, quite the embarrassment to the Libertarian Party. But remember, the R’s and D’s run some nutcases too…we just need more normal folks to make these guys look like the exception, not the norm.

    The conspiracy nonsense, such as the “I don’t have to pay income tax” crowd, the “Federal Reserve is a private corporation” guys, and the “we lost the Revolutionary War and are a still a British colony” boys, have not done proper research. Going to a bunch of amateur websites and listing to Alex Jones is not research. I’ve encountered too many libertarians who have fallen for this and have done crazy things like revoke their citizenship or bring an inverted flag into the courtroom (to make it a “common law” jurisdiction).

    But let’s assume they are right. You aren’t going to get elected by trying to convince everyone that you’re right. You win elections by representing what the people want. The Libertarian Party should not be used a pulpit for this. The LP should win elections.

  • Andy
  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    The Federal Reserve system is not ideal, not truly free or independent, and is horribly flawed from a philosophical standpoint… But dealing in reality, it is the best system in the world. I know I’m going to hear “America is prosperous in spite of the Fed, not because of it,” but there’s no evidence to support this.

  • Derrick

    Yep, now that you mention it, that is indeed the blue guy.

  • Andy

    “Yeah, I have a lot to learn. You really showed me.

    I live on Planet Earth. You might want to consider visiting sometime.”

    Don’t believe me, do your own research and see what you find.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    It’s not theft. People are compensated. Back on Planet Earth, roads do need to be constructed.

  • disinter

    UA – How is a central bank “the best system in the world”? Additionally, how is it “good for freedom”?

  • Andy

    “The conspiracy nonsense, such as the “I don’t have to pay income tax” crowd, the “Federal Reserve is a private corporation” guys,”

    The Federal Reserve is both public and private. It’s a cartel.

    Nobody HAS to pay income tax. The government lies about their own rules. The only reason to pay is because of the threat of force or the use of force. Just because the government says something it doesn’t make it right or true.

  • disinter

    UA – What if I don’t want to be compensated, and would rather keep my property? If they then take my land by force, is that not theft – regardless of compensation?

  • Derrick

    Voters don’t care about any of this shit.

  • Andy

    “It’s not theft. People are compensated. Back on Planet Earth, roads do need to be constructed.”

    If a person doens’t want to sell or wants a higher price than the government is willing to pay then it IS theft.

    You call yourself “undercover_anarchist” but what kind of anarchist support eminent domain, even for roads? I guess one that is “undercover.”

  • Andy

    “The Federal Reserve system is not ideal, not truly free or independent, and is horribly flawed from a philosophical standpoint”¦ But dealing in reality, it is the best system in the world. I know I’m going to hear “America is prosperous in spite of the Fed, not because of it,” but there’s no evidence to support this.”

    Now I’m wondering if you are the commie.

  • Andy

    “Voters don’t care about any of this shit.”

    How do you know this? Even if you are right maybe it’s time they pulled their heads out of the sand.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    The Federal Reserve is the best central banking system in the world. You dispute this? It is not entirely independent, but it is more so than most other central banks. It has presided over America’s greatest era of prosperity. It creates a stable investment environment. I never said it was good for freedom. But the argument could be made that it facilitates social mobility by allowing people to have a stable investment environment and to move out of their station in life. Hardcore Amish Libertarians would like to return to a currency backed by ornamentry. How have such systems worked throughout time? What end result have they produced? Massive income disparity. Societies with little or no social freedom. Sorry to keep bringing up facts here. They’re often unwelcome when they clash with Amish Orthodoxy.

  • Tom Bryant

    Andy,

    I’m glad you understand the Federal Reserve. There are some who insist that it is a private for profit corporation (and all the records showing profits going to the US Treasury is propaganda of course).

    I’m also sure you understand what is meant by the statement “I don’t have to pay income tax”. If not, I will clarify that I meant without negative reprocussions from the federal government, including being fined and/or tossed into jail. I’m talking about the Irwin Schiff followers and the dozens of similiar folks.

    Hey, I hate income tax as much as the next guy. But I’m not going to disrupt my life because I think I can convince a judge that “includes” means something other than “includes” (yes, that is a real get-out-of-taxes argument, lol).

  • Andy

    “The Federal Reserve is the best central banking system in the world. You dispute this? It is not entirely independent, but it is more so than most other central banks. It has presided over America’s greatest era of prosperity. It creates a stable investment environment. I never said it was good for freedom. But the argument could be made that it facilitates social mobility by allowing people to have a stable investment environment and to move out of their station in life. Hardcore Amish Libertarians would like to return to a currency backed by ornamentry. How have such systems worked throughout time? What end result have they produced? Massive income disparity. Societies with little or no social freedom. Sorry to keep bringing up facts here. They’re often unwelcome when they clash with Amish Orthodoxy.”

    It sounds like you should change your name to undercover_communist.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Call me a commie because I rely on facts and history rather than conspiratorial conjecture.

    Mike – There is a difference between philosophy and reality. The book Freakonomics says that morality is the way the world should work; economics is the way that it does work. By that same token, anarchism is the way the world should work, and capitalism is the way it does. In the real world, roads need to be built. The Founders addressed issues like this in the Constitution. Sure, it can suck. But again, we’re living in the real world, not a libertarian utopia (which would have a MUCH MUCH lower standard of living, I might add).

  • disinter

    UA – So you prefer a centralized/planned banking system. Shall the government centrally plan everything, or just the banking system?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Yes, because in Andy’s bizarro world, capitalism = communism.

  • Andy

    “I’m also sure you understand what is meant by the statement “I don’t have to pay income tax”. If not, I will clarify that I meant without negative reprocussions from the federal government, including being fined and/or tossed into jail. I’m talking about the Irwin Schiff followers and the dozens of similiar folks.”

    I agree with people like Shiff, Bob Schulz ( http://www.givemeliberty.org ), Joe Bannister ( http://www.freedomabovefortune.com ), Aaron Russo ( http://www.freedomabovefascism.com ), etc… about the income tax. I’ve studied the issue over the past few years and I believe that they are correct. However, one can be right and still go to prison. The government will often lie about their own laws. I’ve had government officials lie to my face about the law.

  • disinter

    Mike – There is a difference between philosophy and reality. [blah, blah, blah]

    UA – that is a red herring, not an answer to my question. The question was:

    What if I don’t want to be compensated, and would rather keep my property? If they then take my land by force, is that not theft – regardless of compensation?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    I would prefer a free market in currencies, backed by various commodities and notes issued by independent banks.

    Of course, this would mean a much lower standard of living for everyone in America and the world.

    But it doesn’t matter. The Federal Reserve isn’t going anywhere.

    And it isn’t all that centralized or planned. It sets the discount rate. Often, the Fed cannot control interest rates. At the end of Greenspan’s tenure, he faced a “conundrum” when long term rates were not going up in tandem with short term rates.

  • Andy

    “Yes, because in Andy’s bizarro world, capitalism = communism”

    Where did I say that capitalism = communism?

    Are you denying that the big bankers funded communism? Do you believe that the big bankers have something to do with the free market?

  • Tom Bryant

    Andy,

    I’ve read the tax code and have their arguments to be absurd. The courts reach the same conclusion.

    I agree that in a perfect world, there shouldn’t be an income tax. But we don’t have a perfect world. We have a 16th amendment (yes, it was ratified) and a tax code that clearly states that an income tax is imposed on all of us.

    If we want to get rid of income tax, we need to elect the right people to congress. The key word is “elect”. We dont elect people to congress by getting tossed into jail after listening to men who make their living selling “get out of tax” packages all the while they pay theirs (Joe Bannister still pays income taxes *gasp*).

  • http://iliketocomplain.blogspot.com Chris Monnier

    No such thing as bad publicity???

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    If you would rather keep your land then be compensated for a constitutionally permissable use of eminent domain, then you are out of luck. Of course, in this case, you would likely be a lone hold out. If several of your neighbors also wanted to stay, you could band together to demand a more appropriate price.

  • disinter

    If you would rather keep your land then be compensated for a constitutionally permissable use of eminent domain, then you are out of luck.

    Yes, and a victim of theft.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    I think theft is a crime. Something constitutionally permissable is not a crime, is it?

  • Derrick

    “One can be right and still go to prison.”

    Along these lines, I’d like to point out that one can be right and still lose elections. Can we please have a serious, badly-needed discussion about how many LP candidates are entirely disconnected from political reality?

    Wake up, people. The LP is a fringe organization even within the libertarian movement. Reason magazine laughs at us, all the think tanks and institutes keep us at arm’s length, 2nd Amendment organizations don’t want anything to do with us, etc.

    The major parties are bleeding disaffected voters. Our ranks should be swelling right now. But they’re not, in large part because we are widely known as complete kooks.

    What can be done to fix this situation?

  • disinter

    I think theft is a crime. Something constitutionally permissable is not a crime, is it?

    Depends on where you derive your rights I suppose.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Do Eric Dondero’s favorite publications such as the Wall Street Journal and Investor’s Business Daily represent the forces of communism? How about his idol, Larry Kudlow? How about every reasonable, serious economist in the country? Are these all commies? And what about the list of communist characters I mentioned above – were they all tools of the bankers (aka the Jews)??

    Right-wing wacko anti-semitism, anti-capitalism thinly vieled as anti-”banker” anti-communism.

  • Nicholas Sarwark

    Mike,
    I think you accidentally posted this video on HoT. Here’s the site I think you’re looking for.

  • Timothy West

    Voters don’t care about any of this shit.

  • disinter

    Nick,

    No, I am quite certain I meant to post this video. Thanks for checking though. You are a very good citizen.

  • Andy

    Check out this political cartoon from 1911. It shows the big bankers with Karl Marx.

    http://www.reformation.org/wall-st-cartoon.html

  • Tom Bryant

    Couldn’t agree more with Derrick’s comments in #55.

    I enjoy a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, but I have the common sense to understand that it is just a theory. I don’t have the uncontrollable desire to convince everyone about my beliefs whenever I have a pulpit.

    I’ve met some of them in person, and they ramble on about their theories continuously. It’s hard to get a word in edgewise, and takes a good 15-20 minutes to politely end the conversation. And if you dare question anything they say, it’s another good 15 minutes before you can get out of the conversation.

  • Andy

    “Right-wing wacko anti-semitism, anti-capitalism thinly vieled as anti-”banker” anti-communism.”

    You are displaying naive political correctness and denial of reality.

  • Tom Bryant

    Well damn, if someone drew a cartoon about it, that’s all the evidence that I need. Can’t dispute that kind of research!

    Look! Here’s a cartoon of a cat killing a dog with a 2×4!

    http://www.pvponline.com/article/2915/thu-oct-05

    It must be true.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Okay, Mike. I’ll play. Your scenario would not be “theft” in a legal sense. In your own moral world, then perhaps. But then I would ask you, “how did you come about your land?” We can search the title records – “title” of course dating back to the time when all land was owned and controlled by a monarch and parcelled out to dukes and other in-breds. We might even be able to trace “legitimate” ownership back to 1492. Then we run into some problems, don’t we. I believe it was John Locke who said that land ownership was only legitimate so long as there was enough of it to go around. We live in a constitutional republic with precadent and legal standards. Aka the REAL WORLD. Philosophically, I’m with the geolibertarians on land use and ownership. But again, this damn REAL WORLD keeps coming up. My wife is a realtor. I am a stockbroker. I want less government and more freedom. I don’t want to abolish the Fed, return to the gold standard, etc. I want candidates who aren’t kooks.

  • Andy

    “Along these lines, I’d like to point out that one can be right and still lose elections. Can we please have a serious, badly-needed discussion about how many LP candidates are entirely disconnected from political reality?”

    The guy in Montana stands no chance of winning anyway and neither does any other Libertarian candidate for higher offices. Furthermore, why do you automatically assume that nobody is interested in what he has to say? I’ve talked about stuff like this with numerous people who were “newbies” that were interested.

    “Wake up, people. The LP is a fringe organization even within the libertarian movement. Reason magazine laughs at us, all the think tanks and institutes keep us at arm’s length,”

    I don’t fully trust Reason or Cato.

  • disinter

    I am a stockbroker…I don’t want to abolish the Fed, return to the gold standard, etc.

    A bit of a conflict of interest eh?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Of course not! Reason and Cato are run by the Jews, I mean, the bankers!!!

  • Andy

    “I enjoy a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, but I have the common sense to understand that it is just a theory.”

    There’s conspiracy theory and conspiracy fact. I engage in FACTS.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Derrick, you took the words right out of my mouth with this one:

    Even if he’s right about any of that stuff, he still alienated 99.85% of the people watching. All while the words ”˜Libertarian candidate’ appeared below him on the screen.

    I believe there is a substantial amount of truth to much of what he said (certainly not all), but a three-minute closing statement in a public debate is the worst possible time to bring up such a litany of topics.

    He would left a more positive impression on the crowd if he’d kept silent and done his Blue Man Group impersonation.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Sure. I could be a snake oil salesman telling people not to pay their income tax and that the 14th amendment was never ratified, etc., selling books and bogus “liberty” coins, and there would be no conflict of interest. Then again, I’d be a fucking loser.

  • Andy

    “Of course not! Reason and Cato are run by the Jews, I mean, the bankers!!!”

    Who said that Reason or Cato was run by Jews? I’d say a more accurate statement is that both organizations are filled with softcore or phoney “libertarians.”

    I’m not saying that they are completely bad, just flawed.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Just joking, Andy. Trying to add some levity.

    On that note, I’d vote for Star Jones over Stan Jones.

  • Andy

    “Well damn, if someone drew a cartoon about it, that’s all the evidence that I need. Can’t dispute that kind of research!

    Look! Here’s a cartoon of a cat killing a dog with a 2×4!

    http://www.pvponline.com/article/2915/thu-oct-05

    It must be true.”

    Nice strawman arguement. Prove that what I said is false.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I think Mike Nelson brings up a good point. The TransTexasCorridor is a big deal in this year’s race. Theft is theft. Would you let your government buy your car, your spouse, your children in the name of common use?? I have had little to drink tonight, so this may be odd coming from me, but the living things may be “better” bought by the government. They can actually consent to leaving our company. Property is property. You own it and make decisions about its use. My grandparents are buried on a little part of the land left to my mother’s family. If some gov agency thinks they can dig them up to make a highway, they will have to do it after they bury me. Some things are just special without monetary value.

  • Andy

    Mary Ruwart gets it right with the bankers funding communism. Click the link and read on…

    http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/chap20.html

  • disinter

    Sure. I could be a snake oil salesman telling people not to pay their income tax and that the 14th amendment was never ratified, etc., selling books and bogus “liberty” coins

    Stan Jones does not do any of those as far as I can see, I may be wrong. He may actually be a principled libertarian, the kind that doesn’t sell his soul for a little cash, but I may be wrong on that as well.

  • Andy

    This guy hits the nail on the head when it comes to the Cato Institute. Check it out…

    http://www.geocities.com/libertarian_press/reviews/cato.html

  • disinter

    Andy,

    If it isn’t written by Marx, I doubt they are interested.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    “Property is property.”

    That’s a very Eurocentric thing to say.

    Property is a social and legal construct. Different societies define it differently. And if “property was property” then we wouldn’t be here. Not only did we committ genocide so you could have your precious “property” that god forbid a road may be built upon, but we also completely and totally stole the entire western half of the country from another sovereign republic.

    So what is property?

    Black slaves were property. When they were freed, they had none. But “property is property” so fuck them.

    I don’t want my property to be infringed upon. But there is this thing called the Constitution that “libertarians” like to cite when convenient.

    And god forbid that the Libertarian Party allow a stockbroker in its midst. I’ve clearly “sold my soul.” I might as well be a Jew. Stockbrokers are pure commies, after all.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    My question is: Does the Libertarian Party want people who believe in the legal and financial framework of the US? Or just people who think that Wall Street is a bunch of communists and all laws are illegitimate? Where is the party for fiscally conscious social liberals who aren’t nutcase goldbugs rallying for the repeal of the Civil Rights Act?

  • disinter

    I would imagine that a stockbroker that understands that a centrally planned banking system is not “good for freedom”, and that understands that theft is not “good for freedom” could very well not be a communist.

  • Derrick

    If you guys are so hardcore that even Cato isn’t libertarian enough for you, then you may find a home in the Center for a Stateless Society (c4ss.org), a market anarchist think tank which was formed just in the last week.

    Just for the record, I am philosophically anarcho-capitalist myself. But, I am also pragmatic about the current political reality and interested in helping to build the LP into a major, mainstream political force.

    The way I see it, with some mass appeal the LP can get the country to 85/85 or 90/90 on the Nolan Chart. Then, in 60 years some other 3rd party (the Boston Tea Party?) will have to go through everything we did, to move the country from 85/85 to 100/100.

    I just want to win some elections and start reducing taxes and infringements on our civil liberties NOW. Is that too much to ask?

  • disinter

    My question is: Does the Libertarian Party want people who believe in the legal and financial framework of the US? Or just people who think that Wall Street is a bunch of communists and all laws are illegitimate? Where is the party for fiscally conscious social liberals who aren’t nutcase goldbugs rallying for the repeal of the Civil Rights Act?

    I think the LP wants people that generally strive for less government. Not people that advocate the ues of force in order to line their pocketbook.

  • DAP

    No wonder no one votes for Libertarians. They are so nutty that only half the people support them on “libertarian” blogs.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Damn U_A, I thought I was going to bed. Firstly, my genetics (my grandparents on one side) are from those robbed of our land. We bought it back. Deprivation of our property would be a double jeopardy sort of thing. Secondly, why is EVERYTHING black and white with you? The property I earnestly mentioned was that which is not living.

  • DAP

    C-Span even shot to laughing members of the audience during this nut’s speech. I can’t believe that you back this guy and at the same time don’t realize that it is our fault that we don’t get any mainstream coverage–be it debates or the mainstream media. This guy is not mainstream; he is a lunatic.

  • Derrick

    DAP: I’m right with you. I am bowled over by the number of people here who support this type of candidate, and then have the nerve to wonder why the media doesn’t take us seriously.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I do not care about this guy. DAP, are you in TX? If you are, you know about the TTC and the division here. If not, I suggest you research it. If it is not mainstream to point out that there are people being bulldozed over in this land grab, then I am happy to be on the fringe. The TTC- the very thing this guy mentions (I admit he could have framed it better) is a fiasco waiting to happen.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    I certainly don’t advocate the use of force to “line my pocketbook.” The Fed is a reality. You want to fight it? Fine by me. I’m more concerned with the rights of GLBT, abortion rights for women, the rights of immigrants (and the rights of businesses to employ them), freedom from domestic spying and infringement on constitutional liberties, etc. I said that I would prefer a free market of currencies backed by various commodities and independnet bank notes. What else do you need from me? Making the Fed a primary campaign issue is a losing proposition. Making gold a primary campaign issue is a losing propsition. Making all this conspiracy crap a campaign issue is a guaranteed losing proposition.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    I agree with DAP, Derrick and the others. The question is, “Is the LP to be a reality-based political party or not?” If not, just move the “debating society” to the mental ward and speed things up.

  • disinter

    I’m more concerned with the rights of GLBT, abortion rights for women, the rights of immigrants

    Really? What about their property rights?

  • Derrick

    Michelle, you’re right about the eminent domain thing, and it also is a hot issue with voters. We can stand on the side of liberty *and* win elections with issues like that (as long as we don’t come across as kooks.) Check out what Arin Sime is up to. That’s the way to do it.

  • DAP

    Being against eminent domain is a mainstream concern. Communist takeover is not. The point is this: the nice people in Montana gave a Libertarian his chance to debate, and see what a laughingstock he has become.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    I fully support legally defined, constitutional property rights. 99.9999999% of people view property rights from this perspective.

  • disinter

    The question is, “Is the LP to be a reality-based political party or not?”

    UA, you are correct. We should all just roll over and get fucked in the ass whenver our rights are taken away because it is “reality”. We wouldn’t want to appear un-realistic or something crazy like that. By George, it it ain’t on the boob tube, then it can’t be real!

  • disinter

    I fully support legally defined, constitutional property rights. 99.9999999% of people view property rights from this perspective.

    You do realize the constitution can be amended, don’t you? So no matter how many rights you were to lose due to an amendment, you would support it simply because it was in the constitution and “legal”?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Property is a social and legal construct. Society defines what is property. Natural rights are right to action. Property is defined by society and adminstered by the state. You get a title to your property. It isn’t a natural right. I respect and support property rights as defined by common law and the constitution. That makes me an ass-fucked, soulless, sell-out. No, it makes me a reasonable person.

  • Timothy West

    This is the saddest fucking comment thread I’ve ever read on HoT. The LP in a nutshell.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Freedom speech is a right to action. Freedom of the press, religion, etc.

    “Property” – meaning land – is legally defined and adminstered by government.

    There is a huge difference.

    No, I would not support the loss of actual rights by constitutional amendment. i.e. the flag burning amendment, marriage amendment, etc.

  • disinter

    This is the saddest fucking comment thread I’ve ever read on HoT.

    Where shall I send the box of tissue?

  • Michelle Shinghal

    If I work and buy a hairdryer, it is my property. (I Hope We Can Agree On That) If Miss America is in town and her hairdryer breaks in the midst of an ad campaign, should she be able to take mine? What if she offered me $30 for the dryer I paid $25 for? Is that right? What if it will take me $60 in time to replace the dryer? She may be doing an ad to feed starving children. Would she then be right in taking my property at a price that would not meet my effort to replace it? This may seem simplistic, but it is the same.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Less than three hours to reach 100 posts. That’s gotta be a record!

  • Timothy West

    2600 Virginia Avenue, N.W.
    Suite 200
    Washington, DC 20037

    send several.

  • Derrick

    “Where shall I send the box of tissue?”

    Send it to Miss America. She’ll need it when she loses the pageant because Michelle won’t sell her the damn hairdryer.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Timothy, It is sad, but it is about a small part of the blue man’s speech and a big issue in TX.

  • disinter

    “Property” – meaning land – is legally defined and adminstered by government.

    Well by all means, if the government creates a law (legally defines) and administers it, then it must be just. How silly of me to think otherwise.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    That’s not the same, Michelle. Chattle property and real estate are not the same. You are not granted a title to your hair dryer by the government. There is not a finite supply of hair dryers – there can always be more made.

    To make it clear – I think that land ownership and use “rights” (more accurately, “privelages”) should be extended, not receeded. But there is no “real estate” without the state. It is NOT the same as a hair dryer or free speech.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Not what I said, Mike.

    You are just a “sell-out.” if not, take out the title to your land and rip it up. Otherwise, you are using the government’s force to “line your pocket book.”

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Derrick, Perhaps you should take the TAKS test. (another TX issue) If you do, you may not pass the reading comp portion. Miss America has no worry of losing the pageant- she is already crowned. She was doing an ad campaign as a part of her job.

  • Derrick

    Michelle: OK, you’re interested in talking about eminent domain, and not the blue man. Do you have any suggestions on how to present the eminent domain issue to voters in such a way that we win elections?

    As I mentioned in a previous post, I think Arin Sime is doing a tremendous job. There is widespread unhappiness all over the country about the Kelo vs. London ruling. Our ranks should be swelling because of this, but they’re not. How can we capitalize on this issue?

  • Derrick

    Forgive me, it’s 1:30 a.m. EST and my eyes are bugging out. I should have left the office long ago. Damn this thread.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Derrick, I am going to read your link now. Give me the appropriate time for a response.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Derrick, is there more to the link than his position?

  • disinter

    You are just a “sell-out.” if not, take out the title to your land and rip it up. Otherwise, you are using the government’s force to “line your pocket book.”

    How am I profiting from the government’s use of force?

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Michelle: OK, you’re interested in talking about eminent domain, and not the blue man. Do you have any suggestions on how to present the eminent domain issue to voters in such a way that we win elections?

    This is also simple. If there is any opposition to a land grab, the developer must find another way. The only way that the common good clause can be used is if it is a purpose that is a constitutional common good. An example might be, ummmm your house is on the bay and national security depends on us buying (at a fair price) your property. Increasing the tax base is not a reasonable basis for taking someone’s property.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    This is totally opinion and not researched, but I think that it is probably less expensive to provide services to a paying homeowner than a corporation.

  • Derrick

    Michelle: Regarding #114, I just think Sime is running a really strong campaign on the eminent domain issue, and thought you’d be interested in his site.

    Regarding #116, you’re right of course. Because of the way you worded it, I think the general public would agree with everything you said, too. I guess it’s just a matter of getting an audience with them. Which leaves us back at square one.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I recognize that the recent Supreme Court decision has f’d up any semblance of constitutional common good. Perhaps we are all screwed. Left to the state, TTC will happen. Left to the voters, different story. Unfortunately, this was put to the voters in a different form and the voters left it to the state. (my understanding- I am not an expert on the subject)
    So, thinking that Texans are screwed, I have no issue with a man talking about what it is.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Mike – You are profitting by using the government’s defined property lines, tracing back to the time of white conquest, to prevent others from having fair use of the land which you inhabit. Imagine you own 100 acres and only use a fraction of your land. Theoretically, a squatter could take up residence, improve your land, live off of it. Would you call the cops to have the squatter removed? If so, you are profitting from government’s use of force. The squatter does not share your royalist view on what is “property.” John Locke (or was it Jon Stuart Mill?) doesn’t share your view.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    U_A, we cannot atone for the sins of another person. If we call it what it was, can we not move forward? It is not too late to shape our legacy.

  • undercover_anarchist

    I don’t understand the point of your post, Michelle (#121). I’m not asking anyone to atone for any sins. My point (and how the hell this tangent came into being is beyond me) is that “real estate” is a creation of the state, just as surely as the corporation is. That doesn’t mean I’m against real estate ownership. Again, my wife is a Realtor. But we have to recognize it for what it is. Real estate ownership by title enforced by the government is no less offensive than a fiat currency. Both form the legal and moral framework of our financial system. In libertarian utopia, things would be different. But by focusing on abolishing the Fed, we are limiting ourselves to a “debating society” and not a legitimate, credible political party. My point is that the “property rights” (aka real estate ownership “rights”) are just as surely a creation of the state as a central bank is.

  • disinter

    Theoretically, a squatter could take up residence, improve your land, live off of it. Would you call the cops to have the squatter removed? If so, you are profitting from government’s use of force.

    Theoretically, I could protect my land with the use of force by any means other than calling the police. Therefore, I would not be profiting from the governmen’t use of force.

    I do not support government intervention in property ownership, whether the amount of the property is finite or not.

  • undercover_anarchist

    In the absence of government, who is to say who owns what land? What if I decide I own all of Michigan? Other people would go to their county clerk and get their government granted titles and say “no you don’t!”

  • Stuart Richards

    Wow… I agree with UA in about 66% of this thread.

    This dude is a nutcase: YES.

    The Fed is a good idea: NO.

    Geolibertarianism is where it’s at: DAMN STRAIGHT, HOMEBOY.

    I feel like I’m on acid now…

  • undercover_anarchist

    Again, let me reaffirm my support for a free market of currencies backed by a variety of commodities and privately issued bank notes. I even hope to write a novel one day about an alternate world where the only “government” is voluntary confederations and the economy is based on a truly free market in which farmers (for example) deposit their grain and receive grain notes, which can be traded for other commodity notes or for private notes issued by independent banking clearing houses.

    I get it. But I hate the idea of a gold-backed currency. And I’m only saying that the Fed and its fiat currency work pretty well. Not that it’s ideal or “libertarian.” And the truth is, that when candidates base a campaign on “blowing up the Federal Reserve building,” it makes them look about as credible as this nutjob.

  • Stuart Richards

    Well yes, I agree that campaigning with the Fed as a major issue is silly. I wouldn’t have affirmative action at the forefront of any campaign I was running either, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s a great idea either.

    I think we’re basically on the same page… and I’m officially scared.

    :p

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Calm down you all. Chill!

    Listen to what I have to say here. I just spent basically, the last 6 months of my life, on and off in the State of Montana. As many of you know, I was there petitioning and campaigning for the Property Rights and Spending Limits intiatives. I met countless Libertarians during my time there.

    We are not talking Connecticut, Maryland or even Colorado here. Montana is a land of extremes.

    If this guy had been running in any other state (besides maybe Alaska), yeah, he’d be taken as an extreme kook. But Montana has shitloads of Constitutionalists and other conspiracy/gun nut guys. They were probably hootin’ and hollerin’ after the debate, screaming, “finally someone gets it.”

    Yes, he completely lost the more mainstream vote, turned ‘em off in fact. But he secured the fringe vote, which in MT could be as high as 5 to 6%.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    I’m starting to think all you guys are raging schizos! First you all bash more mainstream libertarian groups like RLC, Cato, Reason, et.al. But then you completely turn around and bash this Stan Jones guy as a raging lunatic fringe Libertarian who shouldn’t be on the stage.

    Which is it? Do you all hate Mainstream libertarians or do you all hate Extremist libertarians?

    Just calm the ‘F’ down y’all! The libertarian movement is a Big Tent, just like the liberal movement and just like the conservative movement; big enough for the likes of Bill Westmiller, Ed Crane, Dave Boaz and Virginia Postrel, and big enough for folks like Stan Jones, Ernie Hancock, Tom Knapp and even L. Neil Smith.

    What matters is that we play to our audiences. Stan Jones inside the Beltway WOULD BE AN UTTER DISSASTER. Similarly, some Beltway Cato-ite talking to a group of Free Stater Libertarians in the Mountains of Western Monantan would all cause them to fall asleep.

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    For those who are not aware, basically all Libertarian Party members in Montana think and act the way Stan Jones does. Mike Fellow, the State LP Chair and candidate for Congress is virtually the same. He’s a very nice guy, but out there when it comes to real world politics.

    There’s a breakaway group of Free State Project Libertarians in Granite County (pop. 950), in between Butte and Missoula. Every one of them is just like Jones. They’re well-meaning Libertarians, but very fringe.

    The more mainstream libertarians in the State are active in the GOP. There are a number of libertarian-leaning GOP legislators in MT.

    I don’t see the LP in MT moving in the mainstream direction. So, the best they can hope for is getting all the fringe, especially Constitution Party-type, vote, and make the best of it.

  • Derrick

    “Yes, he completely lost the more mainstream vote, turned ”˜em off in fact. But he secured the fringe vote, which in MT could be as high as 5 to 6%”

    Dondero: Yes, that was my point ;-)

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    Incidentally, for all of you all who diss the Constitution Party, take note.

    This year, the CP WILL elect a State Legislator in Montana. His name is Rick Jore. He is a former Republican legislator. In 2004, he switched to CP, ran again for his seat and won by 5 votes.

    A liberal judge, same judge that threw our libertarian inititives off the ballot this year, gave Gore’s Dem opponent the election.

    Well, Jore got the last laugh. For 2006, a group of libertarian-leaning GOPers got the State Party to NOT run a Republican against Jore this time. As a result he is a shoe-in for the seat which is in a heavily conservative/libertarian area.

    The CP is running no less than 25 other candidates for legislative seats. Most are paper candidates. But 2 to 3 of them have a real shot of winning.

    Even if Jore is the only one elected, this will REALLY screw up the liberals in Montana. Jore will make the Republicans look like moderate well-meaning guys.

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    Even if what this guy says is true, I can’t imagine it being right for the voters.

    If it works in Montana, um, OK.

  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    While the guys delivery leaves a great deal to be desired he was not incorrect in the basic facts. In 2008 you will have a federal ID card and it will likely have an RFID chip in it. The North American Union and its currency are being seriously discussed by the 3 governments involved and they are being quite secretive about it. Their Super Highway is in the development stages and will certainly occur, requiring the theft of enormous swaths of privately owned land. The communist manifesto has been adopted, for all intents and purposes by the US government.
    If he had delivered this message in a different manner this discussion would be moot.
    As for bankers (and corporations) backing communist regimes. Absolute truth. I saw it in China in the 70′s and some of those folks had been there for decades, funnels in hand. Hell, even the USG supported the Russians with aid. Facts are facts…but, delivery counts.

  • Tom Bryant

    For what it’s worth, Eric Dondero has publicly stated that he has “declared war on the Libertarian Party”

    If Eric thinks this guy is good for the LP, that alone should make you stop and think. Why would someone who wants to destroy the LP think an LP candidate is good? And it just so happens that this candidate is batshit crazy with a public pulpit.

    Put it together. Eric knows that this guy and his ilk is driving the LP into the ground.

  • Derrick

    “While the guys delivery leaves a great deal to be desired he was not incorrect in the basic facts.”

    I agree. I guess I’m trying to argue that our candidates should be selective about which positions they present to the voters, and careful to word them in such a way that voters find them appealing.

    For better or worse, political races are a popularity contest. It is not necessarily about being right. It’s about convincing the majority of people that you’re right.

  • Peter Borah

    Wow… I need to check HoT more often, I missed 136 comment. :P

    I’m a 100/100 anarcho-capitalist, and I still think this guy is nuts. It might be true, who knows? But it just makes the LP look even more like the party of lunatics who never got over their teenage rebellion. And there’s no way he convinced anyone in, what, 3 minutes?

    Watch Barry Hess’s recent debate on hessforgovernor.com for a good example of sticking to principle (mostly, I don’t like his immigration policy) while still seeming sane.

    Getting into a real debate is too big of a deal to be wasted by blowing your credibility with conspiracy theories, whether you believe they are true or not.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Eric, I’d love to get in on some betting action on this one. If there are two major party candidates in this race, I say there’s NO WAY he’ll pull 5%, even in a somewhat “fringe” state like Montana.

  • Tom Bryant

    Robert Mayer,

    You have to remember to include the Smurf vote, which this man definitely has.

  • disinter

    And the truth is, that when candidates base a campaign on “blowing up the Federal Reserve building,” it makes them look about as credible as this nutjob.

    The truth is, people that put words into candidates mouths look like nutjobs. When did this guy advocate that?

  • disinter

    For what it’s worth, Eric Dondero has publicly stated that he has “declared war on the Libertarian Party”

    No, I think Eric is trying to point out that what is important to the people in your state, might not be important for the people in other states, and vice versa. I do no think that all Libertarians candidates should focus on the same issues everywhere.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Tom, I admit I never took into account the Smurf vote. I knew Montana was well-known for its ranchers and buffalo, but I wasn’t aware they had an unusually high Smurf population. Could this possibly explain why the Constitution Party is doing so well there?

  • Tom Bryant

    Mike, your response had nothing to do with the statement you quoted. Why did you quote me?

  • Timothy West

    this guy needs no words from me or any one else.

    and the sad thing is that presented in the proper manner, he COULD have made some inroads to people outside the LP/CP community. A good presentation on the Real ID Act and pointing out that it will cost every driver >100 bucks to get their license renewed next time around would have helped him and the LP.

  • Derrick

    Part of the problem is that he tried to fit too much stuff into his closing remarks. Any one of those issues could be explained well, given 5 minutes. But, it was just not cool to throw them all out at once like that.

    Another part of the problem is that the language was so dramatic. I know that when he said “radio frequency chip,” he meant “RFID tag.” But, Aunt Millie doesn’t know what any of that shit is about. She must have thought the dude was from another planet.

    Anyway, I need to find something to do other than post on this thread.

  • http://www.stateofworldliberty.org Nick Wilson

    Sorry I’m late.

    WTF. This guy is a complete and total dumbf—.

    First, the EU is pushed by the free market liberals of Europe. These are the closest allies libertarians have in Europe. It is a model for showing why free trade works – if anything, the EU has only sped the collapse of socialism in Europe. I don’t advocate that for the US, but for Europe, it replaced authoritarianism and war with stability and diplomacy.

    Secondly, the LP must stop this sort of crap. I’m not one for “Central Planning,” but the national and state LPs have to get a grip on limiting candidates like this. He’s a sloppy candidate and speaker anyway.

    The LP is suicidal to keep running candidates that damage any progress we’ve made. This is exactly the batshit crap that makes people like me want to leave the LP and start something new. We’re in the hole here, and it’s quixotic to pretend that we’ll ever get out by continuing our failed 30 year policy of radical shock tactics and lousy candidates.

  • http://c4ss.org/ paulie cannoli

    I would prefer a free market in currencies, backed by various commodities and notes issued by independent banks.

    Of course, this would mean a much lower standard of living for everyone in America and the world.

    Actually, it would result in a much higher standard of living.

  • http://c4ss.org/ paulie cannoli

    I think theft is a crime. Something constitutionally permissable is not a crime, is it?

    Slavery was constitutionally permitted at one time. Was it a crime? I say it was always a crime, regardless of what any band of thugs calling themselves “the law” proclaimed at any given point in time.

  • http://c4ss.org/ paulie cannoli

    were they all tools of the bankers (aka the Jews)?

    Red herring. Many bankers are Anglo-saxon. Others are East Asian, every nationality of Europe, etc.

    It’s not about nationality, ethnicity, and race – it’s about world domination and control.

  • http://www.stateofworldliberty.org Nick Wilson

    Even if everything he said was true, it doesn’t matter. One can take a stance against the Real ID card, the Patriot Act, etc. without sounding like a nut. If people don’t understand what “nut” sounds like, you should check yourself. You might not even realize that you come off that way to the average person.

    These are the people who are anti-government without any of libertarianism’s intellectual logic. They are blinded by their hatred for the State, seemingly more by political orthodoxy than any logical reason.

    They also ignore that there is a huge uphill battle that one must fight tactically if you want to change the State, via reaching the electorate. Things like pulling the communist card are not tactical because they fool no one (it’s corporate socialism, btw.)

    Libertarians have the burden of proof as the challengers of the status quo. Simplistic libertarianism is something we should all scoff at and reject. Without reason, “principle” means empty pigheadedness.