Pentagon forced to reveal more Abu Ghraib pics

We raped and murdered people at Abu Ghraib.

We didn’t just humiliate them. We didn’t just terrify them.

We raped and killed them.

From AfterDowningStreet.org:

A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America’s image. Last year a Republican senator conceded that they contained scenes of “rape and murder” and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were “blatantly sadistic.”

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein ordered the release of certain pictures in a 50-page decision that said terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven they “do not need pretexts for their barbarism.”

The ACLU has sought the release of 87 photographs and four videotapes taken at the prison as part of an October 2003 lawsuit demanding information on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture.

Gen. John Abizaid, commander of U.S. Central Command, said Thursday that releasing the photos would hinder his work against terrorism. “When we continue to pick at the wound and show the pictures over and over again it just creates the image–a false image–like this is the sort of stuff that is happening anew, and it’s not,” Abizaid said.

The judge said, however, that “the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed.”

It’s disgusting that we let these things happen. Hell, it’s worse than disgusting-it’s outrageous. But these motherfuckers will finally get the justice they deserve-the prison time, if not worse (and I pray to God it’s much worse). The victims will get some sort of vindication. And the American public will finally, I pray, mount the ferocious campaign necessary to terminate this murderous enterprise in Iraq once and for all.

posted by Stuart Richards
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  • matt

    Foreign wars always involve rape and murder. This kind of thing is the rule rather than the exception. War is the number one public policy issue in America today. Bigger than taxes, bigger than eminent domain, bigger than the “drug war”.

  • Julian

    Don’t forget, give equal time to the murdering, raping baby killers that devasteded Vietnam, the American soldier. Now their children are doing the same in Iraq and Afghanistan. You are an angry piece of shit the way you wrote the opinion, I am an angry veteran at you, you piece of donkey dong.

    Since you pray to God that bad things happen to American soldiers, why don’t you just pray to Allah, your proper God, you motherfucker!

  • Julian

    You need a slapdown, you fucking punk.

  • Eric

    This is an article from last year.

  • http://www.pnar.org Tom Blanton

    This is old news. By the way, the photos never have been released.

    Julian, go to the nearest VA hospital (or AA meeting) and get some help – you are a sick and depraved man. Look in the mirror and perhaps you will see in human form the devastation that war causes to the human spirit. You may also see why people have little respect for the military. At least the people who weren’t indoctrinated by the socialist killers we call the armed services.

    Waving your bloody flag in support of torturers doesn’t make you a patriot – it reveals an empty shell, or worse. That you equate ending murder and rape with bad things happening to American soldiers shows your total and absolute moral and untellectual bankruptcy.

    Run as fast as you can to the VA hospital and get your meds!

    Then go start posting at freerepublic.com – they love militaristic fascists and torturers.

  • matt

    I’ve never found a way to voice my criticism for the war that doesn’t piss off veterans and other self-procalaimed “patriotic types”. I’m pretty sure that the fault is theirs rather than mine, but I’m open to any suggestions.

  • IanC

    Julian — torture is never acceptable. Unconsented to sadism is never justified. Period.

    Injustices done in the name of ‘freedom’ are not acceptable. And unfortunately, Stuart is wrong.

    The ‘fuckers’ responsible for making this happen will NEVER be punished. They aren’t even going to be put on trial.

    Studies have shown that men placed specifically in positions of unsupervised ‘authority’ over ‘prisoners’ will invariably become more sadistic over time — regardless of their other predilections.

    Those responsible for this are the ones who said, “Break them.” The soldiers bear their brunt of responsibility, yeah, but those giving the orders are *EQUALLY* responsible as those whom carry them out.

    Rumsfeld & Bush are the top of that chain, and they bear equal responsibility for the murders, rapes, and torturing of prisoners.

  • Bill Flanigen

    “You are an angry piece of shit the way you wrote the opinion, I am an angry veteran at you, you piece of donkey dong.”

    Yeah, because it doesn’t matter what they do, as long as they do it in the name of the flag, right?

    This is the sort of bile that got us into the mess in Iraq in the first place.

  • Timothy West

    Soldiers who carry out illegal and sadistic orders should be punished just like the people who gave them the orders. Those that have the sense to refuse such orders should be placed in command of the others.

    There’s not a soldier in the US military that should not know that torturing anyone, even those that would torture you if they could, is a betrayal of the United States’ moral foundation ( what little it has left )

  • http://swmolibertarianparty.blogspot.com The Libertarian Guy

    If this is true… if there was rape and murder… throw EVERY book at them.

    Surprised, Tom?

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie

    Pleasantly semi-surprised.

    Do you still doubt there was?

  • http://warcriminal.freeservers.com Sol

    Makes ya proud to be ‘Mercan (as Bushie says). Ain’t y’all glad AmeriKKKans are such morally superior people? Why shouldn’t they rule the world?

  • http://warcriminal.freeservers.com Sol

    I just can’t figure out why these Ayrabs don’t love us. Hell, we only want to bring them freedom and democracy.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie

    Because NK and China have nukes, and “we” don’t attack countries which actually have them.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie

    I just can’t figure out why these Ayrabs don’t love us. Hell, we only want to bring them freedom and democracy.

    Actually, I agree with Dubai-ya that the Terrorists hate us for our freedom.

    He just neglected to tell us he is the head of the terrorists.

  • http://warcriminal.freeservers.com Sol

    Who ya gonna believe? Bushie, Dickey Cheney, Dougy Feith, Paul Wormsy, Richy Pearle and assorted neoturds? Rush Limbo, Hile Hannity, Michael A Weiner (aka Michael Savage), Julian?

  • http://warcriminal.freeservers.com Sol

    Damn, our government masters rock! Here’s some economic Abu Ghraib for y’all.

    GAO chief warns economic disaster looms

  • http://swmolibertarianparty.blogspot.com The Libertarian Guy

    “Do you still doubt there was?”

    Jesus tapdancing Christ. I can’t believe you’re still asking that. Of COURSE I believe it, paulie. It happens in EVERY war, including the ones Democrats will get us into if/when they take over in the future.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie

    Oh, ok. Sorry, I got confused by the two words “If” in your last post.

    Thanks for clarifying that, and I agree with you about wars started by Democrats (although I do believe it’s been some time since any Democrat regimes actually publically endorsed and defended torture or made it legal, when was the last time they did that? – but then again on the other hand I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to see them do so in the future now that Bush opened the door).

  • http://swmolibertarianparty.blogspot.com The Libertarian Guy

    The point about the public conflating Libertarian anti-warrers with the liberal variety, wasn’t concerning “worrying about what the right-wing will think about us”, but what the public in general thinks.

    When decent people who are against this war hear what the Sheehans and the DemocraticUnderground types (let alone the liberal politicians) say when describing their opposition, they recoil, or should at any rate. Sounding like them won’t do the LP any favors; we have enough problems with people who think we’re a wing of the DNC (I was actually told that more than once, and every time from someone who wore a straight face and was dead serious). It’s bad enough people think the LP espouses “anarchy” (again, people do think this; not that we don’t have anarchists in our ranks, but…)

    So, are there any anti-war outlets that don’t sound like the shrill, needs-medication protesters? Something reasonable that doesn’t also espouse the virtues of socialism or the U.N., preferably?

  • Bill Flanigen

    The last time? The Johnson administration in Vietnam. American troops and American advisors stationed in South Vietnamese POW camps witnessed (and reported, and allowed to continue) rather rampant mistreatment–including the murder and torture–of North Vietnamese and Viet Cong prisoners. Obviously, it’s not a sanction, but the fact that Johnson knew about it–the entire nation knew about it–and did nothing is reprehensible in itself. Perhaps not so much as Bush’s ridiculous support for “creative interrogation techniques,” but stunningly reprehensible nonetheless.

    The information is all in the “Winter Soldier Investigation.” I’d give it a read:

    http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_23_POW.html

  • Bill Flanigen

    “So, are there any anti-war outlets that don’t sound like the shrill, needs-medication protesters? Something reasonable that doesn’t also espouse the virtues of socialism or the U.N., preferably?”

    The Cato Institute, but you probably already knew that much.

  • http://swmolibertarianparty.blogspot.com The Libertarian Guy

    Cato… man, that one slipped right past me. Seriously. I should click there more often.

    Speaking of Vietnam… I remember hearing a rumor that John Fitzgerald Kerry served there. In fact, he talks about it quite often…

    /sarcasm off

    See, that’s the type of unhinged, socialistic anti-war talking-head I’ve been warning against.

  • http://www.duoism.org a Duoist

    If there are more pictures of Abu Ghraib to be revealed which are even more sexually sadistic than the ones we’ve already seen, the political backlash in the Middle East will be a firestorm. It is only too easy to imagine that American troops will be captured and then sexually tortured, in retaliation. If those additional Abu Ghraib pictures are as savage as they are reputed to be, millions of Arab Muslims for the next twenty-five years will have one lasting impression of Americans: utterly depraved, psychotically hypocritical, and the most immoral people on the planet.

    What is becoming increasingly obvious to many of us—and this is how history is likely to judge the man—is that Mr. Bush believes in freedom as an ideology, rather than as a philosophy. Freedom is never to be imposed, nor exported from the barrel of a gun. Napoleon already tried this, and there still are no streets named after him in France.

    Freedom is a moral philosophy, not an ideology, as Abu Ghraib reveals.

  • http://radgeek.com/ Rad Geek

    Stuart,

    This story is actually about a year old. For reasons that I’m not clear on, editorandpublisher.com reprinted a verbatim copy of the story on Judge Hellerstein’s ruling back on September 29, 2005. The government’s appeal stalled the eventual release of the new material but some of the newly released photos and videos were included in this Australian news report from February 2006.

    The Libertarian Guy,

    Why do you think it is important for people talking about this man-eating monstrosity to do so calmly? The circumstances do not call for calmness. Activists are “unhinged” about it because it’s really fucking awful, and it’s getting worse every day.

    (Before you waste your time repeating it, yeah, I know that all wars everywhere are like this, or worse. That’s an argument for being stridently opposed to all wars, not an argument for moderating your tone about this one.)

  • Timothy West

    is that Mr. Bush believes in freedom as an ideology,

    yeah, one could say that about no government libertarians too. They enforce ZAP NAP as an ideology becuase everything is derived from it. When everything you believe comes from one place and one position, it loses the philosophy part.

  • http://lpradicals.org/ Susan Hogarth

    We raped and killed them.

    Who is this ‘we’ you mention?

  • paulie

    Cato is not really antiwar.

    Antiwar.com is a lot better, and run by libertarians.

    I think we have WAY more problems with people thinking we are reich wing Rapepubliccons than with those who think we are too much like Democrats.

    The party has a definite right tilt, and needs to get rid of it to have a chance to grow.

    Bill,

    Good point, but at least even a scumbag like LBJ didn’t publically advocate making torture legal. Dubai-ya has no shame!

    LBJ was trully scummy though; he was the last president to grow government spending at nearly the rate of King George IV Dubai-ya or have as many American troops in battle zones abroad, and like Shrub he also stole an election, although only one (1960) and had the FBI spy on the antiwar and civil rights movements. What is it with presidents from Texas? “Read my lips, no new Texans”.

  • paulie

    Who is this ”˜we’ you mention?

    Good point. I wasn’t there, so it ain’t no we to it.

  • Bill Flanigen

    [i]Cato is not really antiwar.

    Antiwar.com is a lot better, and run by libertarians.[/i]

    Antiwar.com can turn people off of…antiwar.com pretty quickly. Judging the libertarian anti-war movement by that is like judging the LP based on the stuff that gets posted on LewRockwell.com.

    Oh, and Cato is very much anti-war. Has been since (before) the beginning, and still continues to advocate for a sensibly swift withdrawal from Iraq, as well as advocating against various other hair-brained proposals for foreign intervention that have been coming from the left and the right (Iran, NK, Darfur, etc.).

  • Billl

    >Who is this ”˜we’ you mention?

    Not we. Our government masters and their minions. Although the do claiming to be doing it in our name and of course “fer da childern.” And the our certainly doing it with the money they steal from us.

  • matt

    I’d rather be lumped with LewRockwell stuff than with a good many other people who call themselves libertarians.

  • Bill Flanigen

    True that, Matt, but when LewRockwell.com advocates immigration authoritarianism, spends far too much time pissing on the memory of Abraham Lincoln, lionizing J.R.R. Tolkien, defending Martha Stewart, and advocating a return to essentially feudal “privately-owned government,” legitimate questions can be raised about the relevance of their agenda and the vitality of their libertarian ethic.

    To each his or her own, but I’d rather be caught in bed with Cato, FEE, or the ACLU than Lew and his boys.

  • DAP

    “This is an article from last year.”

    Haha

  • paulie

    Rockwell does a lot of good work, but it’s true that he cozies up too much to Confederate worshippers (which isn’t to defend Lincoln, who does indeed deserve to be pissed on)
    and there is that immigration authoritarianism. Combine that with a bunch of other crap that is too long to get into, and it boils down to the race issue.

    On the other hand, Cato defends the war in Afghanistan and a lot of other Republitarian beltway nonsense, and its “reasonably swift” policy on Iraq is like the late-stage terminal alkie who promises to cut down. Besides, several of their people are outright warmongers, even on Iraq.

    Antiwar.com is awesome; what’s your problem with them anyway? It’s LRC (Lew) without the bad stuff.

    Unfortunately, Eric Garris has ignored my advice about turning it into a lobbying group. He’s worried about his tax status, and doesn’t have the time to research 501c4s and foundations. Another one who needs to learn to delegate!

  • paulie
  • paulie

    Darn, another comment eaten by the spam filter.

  • Timothy West

    Theres still so much buried yet to be revealed. Wait until the Democrats win everything. The R’s are going to bite the big one.

  • Bill Flanigen

    Here, straight from the mouth of the beast, is exactly what keeps me leery of Antiwar.com:

    “Antiwar.com is dedicated to building an awareness to the globalist and interventionist forces that would enslave us all in a New World Order on which the sun never sets.”

    OK, so their agenda is admirable. But they take it two or three steps too far into the “cuckoo” realm, with too many appeals to fighting evil conspiracies for global hegemony. It sounds like at any minute they’ll start ranting about the Bilderberg group, or the Masons, or something. They’ve already brought the “New World Order” (a poisoned phrase in political discourse if I’ve ever heard one). Very disconcerting–especially for people that agree with their “patriotic pacifist” outlook.

  • Bill Flanigen

    Oh, that AND Pat Buchanan is one of their contributors.

  • matt

    I think the Lew Rockwell people are intentionally provocative just to get the conversation going. Maybe they think that people who care about free speech and inalienable rights should be a little less hypersensitive than their mainstream counterparts.

    To me, they’re about optimism. They expect a lot of their readers: a high standard of literacy and thick skin to boot. Apparently, they get it, since they’re hugely popular. I’d go there more than here, except that they get a tad repetitive.

  • Bill Flanigen

    “On the other hand, Cato defends the war in Afghanistan and a lot of other Republitarian beltway nonsense, and its “reasonably swift” policy on Iraq is like the late-stage terminal alkie who promises to cut down. Besides, several of their people are outright warmongers, even on Iraq.”

    Now this is interesting–I’m not aware of any Cato scholars that have come out in support of the Iraq War. Enlighten me. Also, I’m not aware of their support for the commitments in Afghanistan (they published a paper critical of the Afghan nation-building experiment in Sept. of 2003, by Subodh Atal).

    Anyway, I don’t think their “reasonably swift” withdrawal policy is too wrong-headed. Seems to me it’s the most pragmatic option at present–coming from a field of very few even moderately attractive “options.”

  • Bill

    “It sounds like at any minute they’ll start ranting about the Bilderberg group, or the Masons, or something.”

    Bill Flanigen, instead of speculating what antiwar.com might say why don’t you provide quotes and links to what they HAVE said that upsets you so.

  • paulie

    “Antiwar.com is dedicated to building an awareness to the globalist and interventionist forces that would enslave us all in a New World Order on which the sun never sets.”

    OK, so their agenda is admirable. But they take it two or three steps too far into the “cuckoo” realm, with too many appeals to fighting evil conspiracies for global hegemony. It sounds like at any minute they’ll start ranting about the Bilderberg group, or the Masons, or something. They’ve already brought the “New World Order” (a poisoned phrase in political discourse if I’ve ever heard one).

    What is it that you have a problem with? Bush Sr. mentioned the New World Order, and if you have any American money in your pocket pull it out and examine the seaL; it says “Novus Ordo Seclorum” which means “New Order of the Ages” (ie New World Order) in Latin. There are numerous Masonic symbols there, and many of the Globalists belong to the Bilderbergers; do you dispute any of this?

  • paulie

    (….43….) If this is true, and it can be easily proven to be true, why is it Cuckoo to mention it? Perhaps we shouldn’t talk about Skull and Bones or the Bohemian Grove – you know, because it’s a secret.

    As for Buchanan, I don’t care for many of his views, but he’s relatively good on foreign policy. Antiwar.com is a single issue websites; they also publish articles by big government leftists who agree with our foreign policy views, and publishing these writers doesn’t make them leftists or Buchananites. It’s true that Justin Raimondo supported Buchanan for President in 2000 and Nader in 2004; but that’s just because he thought their foreign policy views were more important than some of their other views on which he disagrees with them.

    It’s also true that Justin opposes open borders, and I strongly disagree with him on that issue.

    Regarding Cato scolars’ war position, off the top of my head, you can start with Tom Palmer, but there are others.

  • Bill

    I think Julian needs to be a little more civil to people like Stu. After all it’s Stu’s generation that will get saddled with paying for people like Julian’s Socialist Insecurity, Medicare and other assorted socialist rip-off government ponzi schemes, not to mention Julian’s VA benefits.

    Something tells me that calling people in Stu’s generation motherfuckers, donkey dongs and fucking punks who need a slap down is not going to make them want to pay for the blue hairs’ socialist “entitlements.” I think their response will be to the blue hairs “You’re entitled to this” as they flash’em the finger.

  • paulie

    Bill, don’t take Julian so seriously.

    He can’t help it.

    One day he was deep throating Dick Cheney and the tip of Cheney’s schmeckel penetrated Julian’s brain, causing brain damage similar to tourette’s syndrome.

    Plus Cheney blew a big wad at that exact moment, which caused a permanent clouding of Julian’s thinking and vision.

  • http://www.pnar.org Tom Blanton

    Libertarian Guy asks:

    So, are there any anti-war outlets that don’t sound like the shrill, needs-medication protesters? Something reasonable that doesn’t also espouse the virtues of socialism or the U.N., preferably?

    Well, LG, unless you mistakingly believe that Neal Boortz and Glenn Reynolds are libertarians, virtually every libertarian was opposed to the war – BEFORE the war – except some of the wishy washy war party appeasers at LPHQ.

    Ron Paul was at the forefront of opposing the war in Congress (going back to February 2001 – yes 2001) and he isn’t shrill, socialist or too fond of the UN. In fact, he introduces legislation every year to end funding for the UN.

    LG, I would suggest you turn off your radio and quit clicking on Little Green Footballs to find out what libertarians are saying. It is so freaking obvious what informs your worldview by the comments you make.

  • http://www.pnar.org Tom Blanton

    Another thing, LG (wagging finger), if I were you, I’d be concerned about sounding like a shrill fearful right-wing extremist.

    Your irrational fear of Democrats and Muslims sounds more like Rush Limbaugh (or Boortz) than anything rational. After six years of hyper-fascist Republican rule with a myriad of socialist programs (Leave No Child Behind, Faith Based Inititatives, Prescription Drug Benefits), not to mention a frontal assault on privacy and record setting budgets, deficits, and debt, how can anyone take you seriously as you pontificate about socialists?

    Rather than alienating liberals with your talk radio-style rants about socialism, why not try advancing libertarian ideas on producing the results these “socialists” want through voluntary society as opposed to big government solutions – including the “Fair Tax”?

    To worry about how Democrats will abuse the powers implemented by the Republicans is absurd when the Republicans are already abusing them.

  • Bill Flanigen

    “Bill Flanigen, instead of speculating what antiwar.com might say why don’t you provide quotes and links to what they HAVE said that upsets you so.”

    If you look at my post, you’ll see that I already did that, duh.

  • Bill

    >If you look at my post, you’ll see that I already did
    >that, duh.

    Wrong, Bill Fanigen. One quote, no link. Not much to go on.

  • GreginOz

    re #47, Paulie, excellent observation! Even prior to reading the comments I just knew this article would awaken the kraken…Mein Gott en Himmel, save me from your worshippers, you blood thirsty slut.

  • http://www.tom-hanna.org Tom Hanna

    Stuart writes: “But these motherfuckers will finally get the justice they deserve-the prison time, if not worse (AND I PRAY TO GOD IT’S MUCH WORSE).”

    Then Ian, in support of Stuart, writes: “torture is never acceptable.”

    Anyone else see the irony?

  • Bill Flanigen

    “Wrong, Bill Fanigen. One quote, no link. Not much to go on.”

    Uh, given the fact that you obviously know their website, have a mouse, and are capable of the act of “clicking” (and, presumably, typing), I trust you can find your way to their website, and more specifically their “about” section. I don’t feel like subsidizing your laziness.

    And the fact that I provided a “quote” from their website seems to me to be enough proof that I have…uh..quoted them. I provided the quote that best illustrates the problem I have with their attitude. You don’t think it’s enough? Deal with it.

  • http://wesbenedictforlnc.blogspot.com/ Executive Detractor

    I had a cynical letter printed Sunday in the Austin daily about the Iraq War. Trying to get conservatives to do a realistic calculation. I didn’t fully get one of the points across I keep thinking about. Many terrorist scare mongers talk about Muslim terrorists as if they’re some kind of unstoppable growth phenomenon. I think the muslim terrorist will self-destruct and rot from within the way the communists did because they have an inherently inferior system (bad economics, suppression of half their population [women], etc.). Even if you’re an entirely self-centered Republican, the best course of action is to let the inferior culture of the Middle East self destruct with infighting rather than send in American troops to defeat them.

    Middle Eastern terrorist are just like the Libertarian Retard Caucus–guaranteed to self-destruct from internal fighting if we just get out of the way.

    http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/editorial/stories/10/29/29Letters_edit.html

  • paulie

    Tom re 48-49: Yep!

    GreginOz re 52:

    My anonymous source tells me he was selling cocaine to a yuppie in the washroom at a Halliburton stockholders’ meeting when he heard the unmistakable gurgling and gagging sounds of a rough deep throatfucking coming from one of the shitstalls.

    A few minutes later he observed Dick Cheney exiting the bathroom furtively, and soon after that the meeting was disrupted as an ambulance carried Julian, who was foaming at the mouth with his eyes rolling back in his head, out on a stretcher.

    Several days later my source was scoring some prescription pills from an orderly at a local hospital when he heard the hospital gossip about the male patient who came in with brain and vision damage from the future Vice President’s jizz and pistolotto.

  • IanC

    Tom Hanna — I wasn’t supporting Stuart. No irony.

    Try actually reading posts instead of making assumptions.

  • paulie

    Huh?

    Assumptions are what make discussion sites work.

    It’s kinda like a game of telephone.

  • Bill

    “It sounds like at any minute they’ll start ranting about the Bilderberg group, or the Masons, or something.”

    Bill Flanigan, show one quote where antiwar.com mentioned the Bilderberg group or Masons.

  • paulie

    To mention the Bilderbergers or Masons would be kooky.

    Everyone knows they don’t exist. If they did exist, they wouldn’t actually do anything, and if they did anything at all, it could only be good.

    Pass it on.

  • Bill Flanigen

    “Bill Flanigan, show one quote where antiwar.com mentioned the Bilderberg group or Masons.”

    I never said that they did. I said that it sounded like they were “about to,” duh. I was criticizing the conspiracy themes that pop up in their rhetoric (references to the “New World Order,” for example).

    It’s off-putting. Kind of like your ridiculous hostility.

  • http://www.tom-hanna.org Tom Hanna

    Fair enough, Ian, but how about the irony that a rabid leftist anti-war guy is advocating torture?

  • IanC

    Tom — well, yeah. But that’s Stuart’s intellectual aphism. :) (Of course, it *DOES* fit under the category of ‘just punishment’ — eye for an eye — but that’s not something I specifically endorse or support. It’s one of those ‘slippery slope’ things.)

    Stuart tends to communicate emotionally; I’m fairly certain if you were to put the question to him specifically he wouldn’t support it.

    But at the very least *MY* hands are clean here.

    I always liken it to this: in the ticking time-bomb scenario, certainly *I* would torture someone. I would also then face my punishment for having done so. Material expediency does not legal justification make. It’s called “sacrificing one’s self for the greater good.”

    Republicans ought to look into that in their ideology. Especially the theocrats. I seem to recall a joke about being put up for the night, and somebody taking it literally. roflmao.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    The challenge is still on. Just you and me, no guns or knives, a fight to the finish. You know where I live, you coward. Of course, everyone here knows you are a coward.

    Remember, I am 60 so I have spotted you some age, you punk. You are still not he/she enough to take me out, you filthy scumbag anarchist Pol Pot supporter masking as a libertarian. You know I would have no problem ending you and then burning your dirty carcass.

  • Bill

    Bill Flanigen, how is referencing the New World Order taking “two or three steps too far into the “cuckoo” realm” or a being part of a conspiracy theme?

  • Julian

    Paulie

    Why don’t you just tell me where you live and when you will be there and I will come look you up. It will save you the trouble of having to come to a rural area in Colorado.

    I’m waiting for your address and a way for me to verify it is accurate so you don’t jerk my chain. I am serious about this. You have definitely crossed the line this time and I am interested in meeting you for an apology even if I have to beat it out of you.

    Maybe I can figure out a way to get your immigrant ass back to Russia where you belong if you think this nation is as bad as you make it out to be.

    You are a coward and will come up with some bullshit reason why you will not meet me in person as you always have.

  • Bill Flanigen

    “Bill Flanigen, how is referencing the New World Order taking “two or three steps too far into the “‘cuckoo’ realm” or a being part of a conspiracy theme?”

    Because the idea that modern wars (and modern politics in general) are caused by the work of a malevolent international group attempting to establish a New World Order has been a mainstay for conspiracy theorists for decades.

  • paulie

    Julian/Jillian,

    I don’t need any bullshit reasons, putz.

    I got nothing to prove and what would fighting you prove anyway? You sound like a ten year old.

    I used to get in fights every day when I was that age, but I outgrew it. Some kids get big but never mature, and it would appear you are one of them.

    Back when I was a teenager dealing crack in NYC some fool tried to pay me with play money and I beat him until he was a brain damaged quadriplegic vegetable. Now I’m ashamed because I used to do stuff like that.

    You want to get in a fight because we disagree about politics? Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Get a life, dumbass.

    You’re also a big dumbass for posting you address on the internet. Lucky for you I’m a peaceful person. If so inclined I could make one phonecall, and your house would go bye-bye. You’d never hear or see it coming.

    This is not a threat, I’m not going to do it. Not worth it. But keep dicking around, you might run into someone who will.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    You don’t scare me you coward. You are so full of shit about making one phone call. If that were true, you would have done it. Our paths will cross one day. I am not playing games with you, I am serious, you crazy unwelcome immigrant crap. Go back to Russia and start anarchy as you advocate here.

    Real Americans don’t want you here. Get the message yet?
    You are nothing but a taker from this country. You give nothing in return for the privilege of living here. You read me right, the privilege, not right.

    You are an unwelcome immigrant that never even bothered to go through the process of becoming a citizen so that gives you no right to express your opinion. What have you done for this country other than run it down and take from its resources instead of becoming useful. You are taking up space and breathing air an American could use so hold your breath and disappear.

    I will find your anger button and piss you off enough for a personal meeting.

  • paulie

    Julie/Julian

    Keep dreaming, loser.

    The call would be real easy to make, but you’re lucky because (perhaps unlike you) I wouldn’t do that just because you’re a dumbass. It may be hard for you to imagine, but not everybody would do that just because they can.

    Where do you get ridiculous bullshit like me not being a citizen or liking pol pot? What a maroon.

    Oh yeah that’s right, you pulled it out of your ass along with Donald Rumsfeld’s spermload.

    Grow the fuck up and learn to take a joke. I mean, a joke other than yourself.

    Now, go run along, W needs his balls licked again.

    Keep talking shit, you never know who you’re talking to.

    You lucked out this time because I’m not as depraved as I used to be, but there are lots of people who are sick enough to take full advantage of the info you keep giving out, so just keep doing it.

    Trust me, if you ever succeed in pushing my anger button, it’s not me you’ll be meeting. In fact you won’t even know what hits you.

  • Bill

    “Because the idea that modern wars (and modern politics in general) are caused by the work of a malevolent international group attempting to establish a New World Order has been a mainstay for conspiracy theorists for decades.”

    Bill Flanigen, if you read antiwar.com editorials you will see that this is not what they are saying.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    A true coward. You have to threaten with having someone else do me in. You are truly a coward.

    You portray yourself as some sort of criminal having been in the drug business as if somehow it is a badge of honor. What kind of trash are you? Maybe, just maybe we do need some sort of system that would mete out immediate street justice against people like you.

    One day I am going to face you down and you will be the loser. Hell, I’m much older than you but am convinced I can take you out. Your idle threats of having “friends” do not scare me. I survived times and places that make you look like a pimple on a gnat’s ass, you unwelcome immigrant he/she.

  • paulie

    Julian/ Julie Ann

    I feel sorry for you. I was kidding but maybe I hit too close to the truth, which is why it’s pissing you off so much.

    Since you have serious reading comprehension problems:

    I didn’t threaten you. I explicitly said it’s not a threat. And I meant it.

    Yeah, it would be easy to have you taken care of, but what would be the point? You’re just a deluded old fool talking shit on the internet, somewhat amusing but mostly just pitiful.

    Unfortunately, wannabe thugs like you do actually vote for real thugs. But you’re one of millions.

    As for my former business: it’s not a badge of honor. It was scummy, and so was I. Unlike you, I have the honesty to face up to fucked up shit I did in the past instead of justifying it.

    Your calls for street justice reveal yourself for the fascist you really are rather than the libertarian you want to pretend to be.

    As for your over-confidence it also speaks volumes. How the fuck would you know? You don’t know me …

  • paulie

    …so keep talking shit.

    Maybe I’m full of shit, maybe not.

    You’ll have no way of knowing unless you need to know.

    BTW where did I say anything about “friends”? Does the word “family” mean anything to you?

    Laugh all you want. I don’t make threats.

    Now, I’m getting bored (actually I’ve been bored all along).

    Sweet dreams, you nutty sugarcake.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    They will bleed and die just like anyone else. You are not worrying me. FUCK YOU AND THEM. No, I do not believe you know any of them on a level that would do you any good.

    Now that would make an interesting fight, redneck survivalists and the Mafia which I do not believe in a minute you are a part. Talk big, asshole. That will get you in an early grave.

  • GreginOz

    J ulian
    I s
    S o
    M ad!

  • GreginOz

    Paulie, read this link, simply brill.
    http://www.strike-the-root.com/62/kaercher/kaercher2.html
    I reckon Strike The Root is one of the best libo sites in the world!

  • http://www.pnar.org/ Tom Blanton

    Julian is the perfect example why nobody should ever send their kids to “serve their country” by going to another country “to defend our freedoms”.

    Mama, don’t let your boys grow up to be Julians.

    Here’s an article everyone should read (except Julian):

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/markley1.html

  • Julian

    Tom Blanton

    Who invited you into this two way conversation? You looking for a fight too? I don’t appreciate the disrespect. I’ve had enough of it over a lifetime from your parents and won’t tolerate it from the likes of you so crawl back into your pitiful hole, you useless turd.

  • Tom Bryant

    Julien,

    If you wish to have a two-way conversation with Paulie, perhaps you should privately email him. Posting on a public blog is not a two-way conversation.

    That you respond to any criticism with threats of physical violence shows just how weak your position really is. Heck, I don’t even know what point you’re trying make other than to portray yourself as a half-crazed droolin’ old man that wants to pick fights when he’s drunk. You’re doing everyone who has served in the military a disservice by this behavior.

    The realities of war should be brought to public attention so that they are better informed on whether or not to approve going to war. Hiding torture for political gain is not a proper thing to do in an open government.

  • paulie

    I have no need of any two way conversations with Julian. Everybody’s welcome to chime in!

    Jules,

    There wouldn’t be a fight. You’d never see them, hear them, or see or hear anything else ever again. How would you know how well I know them? Blood is thicker than water.

    But would I do it? Hell no. Why bother? You are not even a pimple on my ass. You’re mildly amusing, mildly annoying and completely pathetic. You’re like a chihuahua that makes a lot of ruckus, constantly tries to fuck my leg, and leaves steaming piles of shit on the carpet.

    Sure, it would be easy to pick it up by its tail, swing it around a few times and bash its puny brains in against a wall. But it wouldn’t be sporting.

    I’ve had my share of hurting people just for the fun of it. After a while, it wasn’t fun anymore. I felt bad. But the fact that you would think I would do this to you if I could says a lot about you, and GreginOz sums it up nicely in post 76.

    BTW I never claimed to be part ..

  • http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com Eric Dondero

    When are they going to releast the photos of the Americans jumping out of the burning Twin Towers on 9/11?

    What a woosy country we’ve become. “We’re all girly men now.”

    We beat ourselves up over some pink panties on the heads of Terrorists, and we censor footage of our own countrymen being killed by these Islamo-Nazis.

    We deserve to lose our Nation. We are killing ourselves. And what’s even worse, my own Liberarian bretheren are assisting the Islamo-Nazis, by apologizing for them.

    Shame. Shame, shame, shame.

    Sometimes I wonder if you all are really Libertarians or not? Some of you don’t deserve to use the word.

  • paulie

    ..of any mafia.

    I said what I said, and it’s true, but you read too much into it, as usual.

    I think my speculation must have been very close to accurate, perhaps completely true without me even knowing it. Eerie!

    Jules, you’re such a macho, macho, macho man. Think Village People.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Village_people

    Here’s what wikipedia has to say about head injury victim Phineas Gage:

    “Gage was fitful, irreverent, indulging at times in the grossest profanity (which was not previously his custom), manifesting but little deference for his fellows, impatient of restraint or advice when it conflicts with his desires, at times pertinaciously obstinate, yet capricious…A child in his intellectual capacity and manifestations, he has the animal passions of a strong man. Previous to his injury, although untrained in the schools, he possessed a well-balanced mind, and was looked upon by those who knew him as a shrewd, smart businessman”

    Sounds like Julian to me.

  • paulie

    When are they going to releast the photos of the Americans jumping out of the burning Twin Towers on 9/11?

    Around the time they release video of rescue helicopters NOT picking people up off the roof, just buzzing around.

    We beat ourselves up over some pink panties on the heads of Terrorists

    Over 70% of inmates in Abu Ghraib have been admitted to be innocent. The torture was severe, and in several cases resulted in death.

    and we censor footage of our own countrymen being killed by these Islamo-Nazis.

    http://www.supportthetruth.com/hill.php

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0v0_HDwg84&mode=related&search=

  • Julian

    Eric Dondero

    You are right. I am having second thoughts about being a libertarian or even being labeled one. I am looking around at the majority of candidates running for public office under the LP banner and it is absolutely embarrassing. I went to several debates and speeches and was embarrassed by the candidates.

    The libertarian premise is good and looks good on paper but Socialism, Communism and Anarchism does too when one reads the philosophies. Being a workable, viable political philosophy is another question. It is a leap from words to actions and it is just not working.

    Most of those idiots running as libertarians are doing great damage to a good idea with their spacey actions and words. God help this country and all of us because if the best we can do is the jackasses here, the LP, the Republicans and the Democrats, we must prepare for the coming revolution.

    I would not in a heartbeat want some of these commenter’s here in my revolution tribe.

  • Julian

    Eric Dondero (continued)

    I have observed that many here disrespect you and your opinions. For a group of people that “claim” to be tolerant of others and their ideas and opinions, they are the most rigid group other that totalitarians I have ever read.

    I get angry and fight with them because no matter what my opinion, they disrespect me on a regular basis. I am no pushover but am getting a bit tired of being bashed, cursed, disrespected and verbally spat upon by them. I had enough of that when their parents were spitting on me and calling me a baby killer. Hell, war was a better place to be in the 60’s than dealing with their parents and their kind.

    They claim to be anti-tax but yet will draw money from gov’t programs if given a chance. They accuse me of taking VA money and social security and I do neither. I have done nothing but pay taxes and provide jobs over the years for snot nosed ingrates who learned no manners or civility.

  • Julian

    Eric Dondero (continued)

    I most likely have given up more of my time to charity and helping others than all of them put together. These people are an excellent example of what is wrong with our nation. I am beginning to have doubts whether we can turn it around. It appears to be heading the way of the Roman Empire and all other prior great nations, getting soft, whining and all existence being centered on personal gratification and pleasure at the expense of others or the nation as a whole.

    The future looks bleak from where I am. I am truly sorry we have become what we are, a nation of people that criticize those that try to live right and help others. This is no more obvious than right here with the constant bashing of Christians and Jews just because they believe in God, something the pea brains believe is not worth believing in because they cannot touch or see Him.

    I don’t care if they don’t believe, but why can’t they let them live as they are allowed to live?

  • Julian

    Eric Dondero (continued)

    You seem to be a man of reason. I have visited your site and will check you out again. I am not going to waste my time or energy on these people anymore by presenting my ideas that are immediately shot down no matter what they may be. I now feel like the clown and it is not a good place to be, or better the court jester on this site.

    These people believe they are some sort of intellectuals with all the answers that the rest of us should adhere to. What makes them any different from any other group of people that want to force their opinions and philosophies on others as the only right answer.

    There are no clear cut answers to our political and social problems here or around the world. There are many shades of gray and I am the one accused of being rigid when in reality they are the “my way or the highway” gang.

    This nation is not perfect. What are our choices? I traveled all over the world and there is no other place that even comes close.

  • paulie

    You are right. I am having second thoughts about being a libertarian or even being labeled one.

    Sure took you long enough.

    I would not in a heartbeat want some of these commenter’s here in my revolution tribe.

    LOL dumbass, no one wants to be part of your devolutionary
    tripe.

    For a group of people that “claim” to be tolerant of others and their ideas and opinions, they are the most rigid group other that totalitarians I have ever read.

    We’re very tolerant. Want to go to West Colfax in Denver and blow guys in a gay bathhouse? Have fun. Want to hang out in a mountain cabin by yourself oiling your guns? Have fun. Want to sit on the internet and issue empty fight challenges? Have fun. The only thing we don’t tolerate is
    those who initiate force.

    Want to use the regime to steal money from us for genocide in Iraq so you can make more money on Halliburton stock? Big No-no. Want to beat up peaceful antiwar protesters? Big No-no.

  • paulie

    I get angry and fight with them because no matter what my opinion, they disrespect me on a regular basis.

    Your “opinions” have been very disrespectful from the beginning. Why should others respect you?

    I had enough of that when their parents were spitting on me and calling me a baby killer.

    Did this actually happen to you?

    They claim to be anti-tax but yet will draw money from gov’t programs if given a chance.

    And your evidence for this claim is…?

    who learned no manners or civility.

    You’re a fine one to learn civility from. LOL.

    It appears to be heading the way of the Roman Empire and all other prior great nations, getting soft, whining and all existence being centered on personal gratification and pleasure at the expense of others or the nation as a whole.

    For once you’re right, and imperialism – such as you and Eric espouse – was a big part of it.

  • paulie

    The future looks bleak from where I am.

    Yes, yours probably is.

    I am truly sorry we have become what we are, a nation of people that criticize those that try to live right and help others. This is no more obvious than right here with the constant bashing of Christians and Jews just because they believe in God, something the pea brains believe is not worth believing in because they cannot touch or see Him.

    Well, I believe in God, some others here don’t. No one wants to prosecute you for believing in God. On the other hand we are not fond of those who think their religious morality entitles them to enforce their social views through the initiation of force or coercion, or that their denominational squabbles (Christian vs. Muslim, Jewish vs. Muslim or whatever) entitle them to steal billions of dollars from us and commit genocide in our name.

  • paulie

    I don’t care if they don’t believe, but why can’t they let them live as they are allowed to live?

    As far as I’m concerned, live any way you want to live as long as you agree to my right to do the same. We can call each other names, but starting fights (unless it’s mutually agreed on) is a different matter.

    Eric Dondero

    You seem to be a man of reason.

    LOLOL

    my ideas that are immediately shot down no matter what they may be.

    Not true at all. One the few occassions you’ve presented such pro-freedom ideas as you have, you’ve been commended. But most of the time that’s not what you talk about.

    I now feel like the clown and it is not a good place to be, or better the court jester on this site.

    Don’t cry! You’ll always be our favorite peanut brained whipping boy.

    What makes them any different from any other group of people that want to force their opinions and philosophies on others as the only right answer.

    We don’t

  • Julian

    Paulie Cannoli

    I was not addressing you. Why do you always pop up and insert your useless opinion when no one asks for it?

  • David

    Julian – If you are looking for some one to “slap down” please forward me your email and I will in return give you my home address in Vegas. Not to far to go for you and I would be more then happy to have the chance to kick the shit out of one of you cry baby veitnam vets. God give it a rest.

    No body welcomed me home… they spit on me when I got off the plane. Wah wah wah.

    I am so sick of the crying of your whole generation.

    Veitnam was ages ago. Why keep bringing it up. Jesus, mother Mary and Joseph! Nobody but you old farts cares any more.

    That is not to say we onced did care but all the crying really turned us all off to your pain.

    Why couldn’t you be more like your fathers gen that was truely the greatest generation, they did what they had to do and rarely if ever complained about it.

    For crists sake, more people die in trafic accidents in America every year then died in all of our time in ‘Nam. Does that make it right, no. But shut up about it already.

  • Julian
  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie

    This nation is not perfect. What are our choices?

    Do whatever we can to save it from going all the way down the shitter if it’s not too late yet, or hope they will still allow us to leave if it comes to that.

    I traveled all over the world and there is no other place that even comes close.

    So have I. That has not been my experience. I’ve found that America is better in some ways, and other countries are better in others.

    I’ve definitely found that over the last quarter century America has gotten worse, and it is reminding me of the USSR more and more all the time.

    BTW I don’t really care if you want to read my opinions – you have the option to skip past my comments, but I’ll leave them in case others are interested.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    508 Short Street SE
    Hartselle, AL 35640

    I’m narrowing down where you are.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    I now know I can find you. You can’t hide.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie

    Nice try. You’re about a thousand miles off, dumbass.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie

    Sure, whatever.

    Get a life.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    You are a she. How are you, Barbara G. I’ll be damned!!! I would not have believed in a million years you could be such a filthy bitch, bitch. You were full of shit all along. I was right. My old cop instinct had it right.

    GOTCHA

  • Julian

    Paulie

    For your own safety, I am not going to divulge your true identity. Just finding out was worth the chase. Keep backing out but you and I know you have been caught. If you were a man, I would find you and kick your ass but since you are a woman, I still have some old southern chivalry left in my hardened soul so I will not come for you. I now feel much better.

    Everyone knows who I am. How many others are hiding behind bullshit identities because they don’t have the guts to be honest and straight about who they really are. I have been. I don’t hide like most of the rest of the cowards.

  • http://www.pnar.org Tom Blanton

    A wingnut writes:

    Who invited you into this two way conversation? You looking for a fight too? I don’t appreciate the disrespect. I’ve had enough of it over a lifetime from your parents and won’t tolerate it from the likes of you so crawl back into your pitiful hole, you useless turd.

    Hey, pops – I’m old enough to be your little brother. My old man is 84 and is a WWII vet. He tells me that he didn’t fight then so that America could be fascist today.

    So, take your collectivist nationalism and shove it old man.

  • Rape As Common As Apple Pie

    1) But we are the “moral god-fearing nation”.

    We don’t do rape and murder remember… commander cuckoo bananas told us so…

  • Julian

    Tom Blanton
    1504 Ethridge Dr.
    Richmond, VA 23226

  • I’m a patriot cause I have a “Support Our Troops Sticker”

    2/3 Julian,

    Damn man… these were true crimes. And YES some of these true crimes happened in Vietnam and YES some of them committed by soldiers.

    Does this mean we attack, degrade and disrespect every soldier!? Hell no!

    I do however believe in holding those accountable that should. I truly think that were are going to see a major shake-down of the military (not the troops mr shoot from the hip) but from the top down.

    You and I both know that the shit rolls down hill. The more desertions of conscience we see coming out of the military the better. It is starting to shine a light on this that even those not online will notice.

  • Identity Theft

    Julian,

    As a former law enforcement officer you should not be posting their addresses on this site. That is not moral, it is not ethical and I certainly hope you are not using government resources for your own private attacks in this forum.

  • Stephen VanDyke

    Jesus Christ, can you people take this personal fight club bullshit to another website? I’m gonna start banning people here at the drop of a hat if I keep seeing this.

    COMMENTS CLOSED, STOP BEING RETARDED (EVERYONE)!