Not so Independent

“Happy Fourth of July!”

What’s wrong with that exclamation? You hear it uttered everywhere, by friends and family, on television, radio, the internet…

Something’s missing, isn’t it?

What’s missing is the actual name of the holiday that Americans used to celebrate on July 4th: “Independence Day” What happened to it? When did popular culture shift away from correctly labeling this holiday? Was this a concious choice? Did someone “in power” decide to start labeling it the “Fourth of July”, or did Americans just up and decide that since freedom is being destroyed they should change the name of the holiday?

It’s interesting to take note of all the different sources one hears “4th of July” around this time of year, and how very seldom “Independence Day” is mentioned. Go ahead, pay attention. It may bother you enough that you’ll correct someone when they get it wrong.

What do Americans believe this day is about? Some popular culture suggests it’s about “celebrating America’s birthday!”. Perhaps most Americans just see it as an excuse to have a day off from work and get drunk. Sort of like St. Patrick’s day, but with fireworks.

Drink up, America! Whatever you do, don’t question anything! Just party on, and leave the thinking to the government!

Now that I’ve been cynical and jaded enough, let’s focus on independence. Perhaps Independence Day can now be a day for people who love Liberty to make resolutions as to how they will make themselves more independent from this insane government. Will you resolve to:

Quit paying income taxes?
Quit collecting state sales tax?
Quit withholding taxes from your employees’ paychecks?
Join the Free State Project, or better yet sign the First 1000 Pledge?
Become an AMPlifier, and help spread the message of Liberty worldwide?

What are your Independence Day resolutions? Please post them to the comments and I may feature them on tonight’s live internet only edition of Free Talk Live.

posted by ianbernard
  • paulie
  • paulie

    Join the Free State Project, or better yet sign the First 1000 Pledge?

    Perhaps if

    1) The FSP was anarchist and secessionist
    2) Had a real chance to take over NH
    3) And a way to protect itself from USSA regime reconquest

    I would consider it.

    It would be even more likely if it wasn’t cold in the winter, and if I had a job there.

    Perhaps, if global warming turns out to be real, the White Mountains might be calling me in a few decades or centuries.

  • Mike Cheel

    Well much like Constitution Day each year I like to remind people what is we are celebrating and encourage them to read the Declaration of Independence (and the Constitution on its day).

    Most ususally laugh and say whatever. They are more interested in fireworks. A definite sign of the times.

  • ianbernard

    Paulie:

    1. There’s a bunch of voluntaryist/secessionists moving to Keene, NH. http://republicofnh.org http://nhfree.com .

    2. If we can’t win Liberty in one state, we should just give up. Of course there’s a chance.

    3. Again, if you’re scared to lose, stay out of the fight. Someone will make a stand for Liberty, and hopfully blood need not be shed.

  • paulie

    and that as a free and independent state, we have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do.

    However, no state may of right do any of these things, although if I read the platform correctly, RNH would not have a tax; however, I’m not sure whether I read it correctly ….it may be that it just would not have an income tax, but might still have some other form of coercive taxation.

    Unfortunately, I found the explanation of why the feds would not attack RNH to be unpersuasive. They would attack because it would take away some of their power, and because other states might follow the example.

    Also, would RNH initiate violence against any other company or cooperative which provides the same services as RNH within New Hampshire?

    Of course, this is a fantasy, since there aren’t enough libertarians to take over NH even if they did all move there.

  • paulie

    2. If we can’t win Liberty in one state, we should just give up. Of course there’s a chance.

    I have to disagree. Take liberty wherever you can find it. It’s unlikely to develop in any one state alone.

    Again, if you’re scared to lose, stay out of the fight.

    Ain’t skeered.

  • ianbernard

    I can’t find Liberty around here, that’s why I’m moving together with others of like mind.

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand. What are your Independence Day resolutions?

  • http://warcriminal.freeservers.com Sol

    On this 4th of July lets try to remember all the people our government masters have murdered, tortured, maimed, stolen from, spied on and otherwise enslaved. Of course the Amerikan Sheeple are victims too but they are too busy worshipping their government (like they are doing today) and believing their masters love them. They certainly believe their masters when they justify their actions by shrieking “It’s for the children.”

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    “Quit paying income taxes?
    Quit collecting state sales tax?
    Quit withholding taxes from your employees’ paychecks?”

    Yes, because, y’know, tax evasion has been SO successful in turning voters against taxation and abolishing the tax system.

    Oh, wait… the voters despise tax dodgers. I forgot about that.

    Whoops.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    American History 101 or better, elementary school lesson #3, second grade; the war for states rights or right to secession was known as (take your pick):

    Civil War
    War Between the States
    War for States Rights
    War of Northern Aggression

    What the hell is wrong with you? Is all your gray matter inside your skull intact or is it mush? Do you really believe an anarchist state is possible? It seems “anarchist state” or anarchist government is an oxymoron considering anarchy is an absence of government, any type of government period.

    I believe you are a flame baiter and cannot possibly believe or even support some of your wild ass ideas.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    You cannot even start a revolution. How the hell would you ever get two or more people to go the same direction or follow orders? Don’t anarchists believe in the total absence of law and order? The only way one can maintain order in any military operation or militia is by enforcing order which means drastic measures for those that disobey orders they may not want to follow.

    What a mental picture I have of a bunch of anarchists trying to even form a committee to discuss a revolution to dismantle all forms of government. Nothing would be accomplished because there would be no Robert’s Rules of Order to follow. Anarchists, by their very definition, would have to reject any order. How pitiful your movement is. You are no threat or danger to anyone.

    Your positions are so ridiculous that I wonder why I even allowed you to piss me off in the past. Once I used my Georgia peanut brain I realized your belief is the epitome of stupidity. If I get it, so does everyone.

  • ianbernard

    Hey Kris, the point of my question was what can one do to make one more independent, not make the voters happy.

    Regardless of what the voters think, most people don’t care much for taxes, and would like to pay far less. I simply suggest they just stop. If enough people had that much courage, the voters would be irrelevant.

  • http://www.pnar.org Tom Blanton

    Julian writes: Anarchists, by their very definition, would have to reject any order. How pitiful your movement is. You are no threat or danger to anyone.

    So there, Paulie. Everybody knows that anarchists all talk at once and everyone knows that you can’t have a viable movement unless you are threatening and dangerous. That is why Bush is so popular – he’s dangerous and threatening.

    And everyone knows the Declaration of Independence is just a piece of paper – forget about what that old rag says about independent states. Secession must be nipped in the bud by people who are threatening and dangerous.

    For Independence day I am going to pay extra sales tax on everything I buy because voters love taxes. Plus I decided to rewrite the Bill of Rights to reflect a more pragmatic approach to doing real politics.

    Later, maybe I’ll go out and threaten some people.

  • http://warcriminal.freeservers.com Sol

    The reality is that the 4th of July has turned into just another holiday of state worship.

    If you talk to the Amerikan Sheeple about this holiday the gist of what comes out of their mouths is that we should be grateful for our government and its wars because that’s what keeps us safe and free. There is no thought or discussion of the threat government poses to freedom and what we have lost over the years to government.

    But what else can you expect in a country where most people think that the more powerful their rulers the safer and freer they will be and where government exists to give them things.

  • paulie

    Yes, because, y’know, tax evasion has been SO successful in turning voters against taxation and abolishing the tax system.

    Convincing voters is not the only way to abolsih the tax system. I’m with Ian on that one.

    Julian

    American History 101 or better, elementary school lesson #3, second grade; the war for states rights or right to secession was known as (take your pick):

    Civil War
    War Between the States
    War for States Rights
    War of Northern Aggression

    Most of those propaganda books call it the civil war, although logically that would mean the south wanted to take over the north, which of course it didn’t. Thus the last three suggested names would be more accurate.

    Do you really believe an anarchist state is possible?

    Of course not. An anarchist area is.

    It seems “anarchist state” or anarchist government is an oxymoron considering anarchy is an absence of government, any type of government period.

    Gold star for Julian.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    This line of comments is already turned into total BS.

    Turn that energy into figuring out how we do right by our 2006 candidates. Nobody can change it now.

    What are *you* gonna do to make the 2006 elections better? I know what I am gonna do god willing and health permitting, and I’ll say so in a bit. I’m on my 5 day maintennce dose of chemo nd it’s kicking my ass. :(

  • paulie

    I believe you are a flame baiter and cannot possibly believe or even support some of your wild ass ideas.

    Wrong.

    Don’t anarchists believe in the total absence of law and order?

    No. I don’t equate law and order with monopoly government.

    The only way one can maintain order in any military operation or militia is by enforcing order which means drastic measures for those that disobey orders they may not want to follow.

    Not a problem, as long as those individuals willingly subjected themselves to those rules in the first place and are allowed to leave the organization whenever they want.

    Nothing would be accomplished because there would be no Robert’s Rules of Order to follow.

    Why not? If Robert’s rules were voluntarily adopted by a body in which membership is voluntary, they would be perfectly fine.

    Anarchists, by their very definition, would have to reject any order.

    That would be your definition, not ours.

  • paulie

    Anarchists, by their very definition, would have to reject any order. How pitiful your movement is.

    This would be an example of “strawmen argument”

    You are no threat or danger to anyone.

    I certainly hope you’ll continue to believe that.

  • paulie

    Tom B: I fully agree with #13. Can we form this as a concensus plank in the new LP platform in 2008?

    Tim,

    Turn that energy into figuring out how we do right by our 2006 candidates. Nobody can change it now.

    Did you mean to pose this in this thread? It doesn’t seem to fit.

    What are *you* gonna do to make the 2006 elections better?

    Not vote.

    I’m on my 5 day maintennce dose of chemo nd it’s kicking my ass. :(

    My wishes on a full and speedy recovery.

  • http://www.tom-hanna.org Tom Hanna

    If I were going to break a few laws over the next few days, I wouldn’t post my confession on this website for the NSA to read. ;)

  • Stuart Richards

    The tinfoil in this thread is blinding me. :\

    Anyway, I found it funny… “Fourth of July” is apparently the libertarian version of “Happy Holidays.” IT’S A WAR ON INDEPENDENCE DAY, FOLKS. THEY HATE OUR FREEDOM.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    “Yes, because, y’know, tax evasion has been SO successful in turning voters against taxation and abolishing the tax system.”

    “This line of comments is already turned into total BS.

    Turn that energy into figuring out how we do right by our 2006 candidates.”

    You each completely missed the point of Ian’s post. It had nothing to do with the LP.

    Why must you continue to worry about how others are making you look? What is wrong with someone peacefully protesting the income tax by not filing? It is their butt on the line.

    Some choose to fight for freedom their own way. Stop bitching about how they do it, and tell us how you resolve to become more independent.

    Myself — I’m working on my career, making time for my family, and finding ways to enjoy my life as personally independent as possible. I don’t need candidates or voters to live free.

  • Devious David

    “Give me liberty or give me death” run through the LRC pragmatist patrol would become “Give me liberty… uh… PRETTY PLEASE?”

  • paulie

    No, it would just become, “surrender your liberty or we will kill you”

  • Stuart Richards

    Overdramatic much?

  • paulie

    No.

  • Stuart Richards

    LOL

  • paulie

    Why?

  • Stuart Richards

    I’d tell you, but that is inconsistent with the principles of the Libertarian Police State (TM) that the LRC is wishing to establish.

    Look up our ideological heroes-Marx, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin-and you might get an inkling of what the LRC would like to do to for you.

    Today, we destroyed the Libertarian Party-tomorrow, THE WORLD!

    LMAO

  • Stuart Richards

    Seriously, man, it’s not the horror you’re acting like it is. Settle down, fix yourself an adult beverage… it’s all good.

  • Lex

    When less than 1% of Americans even VOTE for liberty, how many would actually fight for it?

  • http://darianworden.tripod.com D Worden

    Happy Independence Day everyone!

    Remember to set off tons of fireworks to celebrate liberty and secession…ESPECIALLY if you live somewhere where it’s illegal to do so.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    *sigh* Stuart, bear in mind that sarcasm is not always recognized in speech, much less in text. Too many Libertarians would read that and rush out screaming about the statist conspiracy to destroy the LP through its tool, the LRC…

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    “What is wrong with someone peacefully protesting the income tax by not filing?”

    (1) It DOESN’T WORK.

    (2) It makes anti-tax activists in general look like nothing more than tax dodgers.

    (3) It doesn’t call attention to the unjust tax law, but instead to the person trying to evade it.

    (4) It encourages other people to wear the tinfoil beanie.

  • paulie

    Seriously, man, it’s not the horror you’re acting like it is.

    I don’t think it’s a horror.

    A) It removes the false hope that real liberty can be achieved through a political party.

    B) By making the LP into, basically, a redundant, retarded, inbred cousin of the NSGOP, it helps to split the Republikkkan vote.

    So, my best wishes to the LRC, the RLC, and all other rearangements of those three letters.

  • paulie

    “What is wrong with someone peacefully protesting the income tax by not filing?”

    (1) It DOESN’T WORK.

    Works just fine. You should try it some time. You actually, really do get to keep your money. As opposed to fantasizing about eventually not having to pay, you just…don’t pay.

    It doesn’t make the regime go away, but it’s a good first step, and it has some personal benefits. Plus, the more people do it, the more other people do it….which is a good thing.

    It’s even more attractive now that the only party which advocated eventually getting rid of taxes no longer does so.

  • paulie

    (2) It makes anti-tax activists in general look like nothing more than tax dodgers.,/i>

    There’s nothing wrong with dodging a mugger.

    By the way, were the guys who dumped the tea in Boston Harbor tax dodgers?

    (3) It doesn’t call attention to the unjust tax law, but instead to the person trying to evade it.

    It does both (if done publically).

  • paulie

    Looks like I didn’t close a tag.

  • paulie

    test

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Kris, I notice you still have contributed NOTHING to Ian’s topic, which is: how do you plan on achieving your own personal independence?

    Continually bashing others who are finding their own way, whether right or wrong, diminishes any point you may have.

    I pay my income taxes, because I have higher priorities than fighting the state over the money they take. After all, I’m out-gunned. But I refuse to denigrate those who ARE fighting the state. If guys like Paulie can get away with it, then more power to them.

    Do you believe the US should have an income tax? If not, then why bash those who resist it? Because they make you look like a kook?

    You fight your battles, whatever they may be. Let others fight theirs.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Chris: I deny the concept of “personal independence”. Liberty must be for all, else it is for none.

    The only way to win “personal independence” is to amass enough personal power to place yourself above the law. Otherwise you are dependent on your neighbors to recognize your continued right to exist; you are dependent upon the courts to recognize your rights to contract, to property, and to the profit of your own labor; you are dependent upon the army and police forces to stop those who would take your rights, your property and your life from you. If you are wise you will do everything you can to defend yourself, but the average person does not have the capacity to defend his or her freedom by himself or herself. Numbers will tell.

    I do not seek personal independence. I seek personal FREEDOM- for myself and every other American- by participating in the political process and getting people who represent my views elected to office. Only that can produce lasting change.

  • jnice

    Will you resolve to:
    Quit paying income taxes?
    No, because I’d go to jail.

    Quit collecting state sales tax?
    No, because…well, I already covered this one.

    Quit withholding taxes from your employees’ paychecks?
    N/A

    Join the Free State Project, or better yet sign the First 1000 Pledge?
    No offense to the FSP, but I’d prefer to support libertarian candidates and ideas locally. With the way things currently are in our nation, I think people are looking for something other than modern conservative and liberal solutions. Instead of one major libertarian community in NH, we could have several throughout the country…we just need to promote libertarians and our ideas more (and more effectively)! Still, I’m not saying the FSP is a bad idea.

    Become an AMPlifier, and help spread the message of Liberty worldwide?
    I have no idea what this is, but maybe I’ll check out your link some time.

    I wish I had some fireworks tonight (yes, they’re illegal in my state).

  • ianbernard

    Jnice,

    After having worked for years at promoting Liberty locally, I’ve decided it’s hopeless. The best way to get the rest of the country onboard with Liberty is to make it happen in one state, then set an example.

    It will hurt your local group for a little while, because we’re literally sucking the best activists up from around the country, but eventually it will help your local group in the long run.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Kris, stop by my house sometime and try to take my property or my life. You’ll find out real fast how much I depend on the police and military. Enter into a contract with me, then break the contract. I’ll never do business with you again. I don’t depend on the courts to make that decision. I could care less what my neighbors think of my rights. They don’t bother me and I don’t bother them. Though we do help each other now and then, neither of us depends on the other.

    You may not believe in “personal independence”, but I and others do. Don’t tell me how to fight for my own freedom. And stop bashing those who take action to increase their own personal freedom and independence.

    Do you want to know why many people in the LP are annoyed by the LRC? Because those most vocal can’t raise more than $1,000 for their state representative races, can’t earn more than 1% of the vote, but still claim some great knowledge about how to elect Libertarians and how to set America free.

  • Devious David

    … well I just had my Independence moment. Thank god in the land of the free, if you live in GA you are not free to celebrate your freedom with fireworks. Unless you don’t care because you have independence. The neighbors are eating their hearts out right now. Gutless bitches.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Every fireworks shop in North Carolina has a “back room” with the real good illegal stuff.

    God bless independent businessmen who continue to cater to my need to blow stuff up, no matter what the government decrees.

    Unfortunately, I still don’t have the balls to ignore income tax laws.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Chris: How well would you do in a market where EVERYBODY lied cheerfully to your face, breaking contracts at a whim, secure in the knowledge that there were no consequences- that you would be forced to come back to them for more business?

    How long would you last against organized bands of thieves, or worse bandit gangs or even foreign raiders?

    What happens when your neighbors decide, as a group, that they want you gone by any means necessary?

    These things happen today, right now, in places around the world- in places where the government is either inactive or impotent to prevent them. In those places freedom belongs only to the strong- the tyrants, the gangs, the militias, the terrorists, the criminals.

    You, on the other hand, live in a country where you are free to tell everyone else to piss off. This is not due to your own action, your own power, your own strength. It’s due to a government strong enough to defend individual freedom. Our job is to restrict it to that task alone.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    I can assure you my neighbors do not loot my house because they fear the consequences. They are good people. And I’m not forced to do business with anyone. Are you saying that without government, you’d lie cheefully to my face?

    Anyway, I’m not an anarchist (although conversations like this get me closer every day). But I’m not dependent on anyone. Government could evaporate tonight and I promise you that my family and I would survive based on my own action, my own power, and my own strength.

    I have no problem with anarchists. They certainly don’t get in the way of my own efforts for personal freedom. And they are some of the most dedicated activists in the LP, fighting for everyones freedom.

    “Our job is to restrict it to that task alone.”

    That may be your job. Others what to get rid of the government completely. Dictating to others what their “job” is doesn’t win many friends.

  • http://www.thirdpartywatch.com Austin Cassidy

    Part of the decline in the term “Independence Day” is probably because “July 4th” is easier to say and spell – and we’ve become a stupid and lazy people.

    Also, the Will Smith movie.

    And then in general the media has decided that we’re a multicultural society, our history and traditions are mostly racist and evil… and therefore all holidays should have the meaning sucked out and replaced with a delicious cream filling.

    Christmas presents, Candy hearts, Green beer, Easter eggs, Fireworks, Spooky masks, and big Turkey Dinners. In fact I’ve heard so many people call Thanksgiving “Turkey Day” in the last few years that I want to punch someone. It’s not a holiday to celebrate the Turkey!

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Chris: I am opposed to anarchy and to all who advocate it. Anarchy is not liberty, it is the ABSENCE of liberty. Anarchy is the rule of the strongest over the weakest, without restraint, without justice, and without regard to the rights of any.

    Anarchy is evil for the same reason communism is evil: to function it requires everyone, universally, to be perfect, unselfish, ethical, enlightened and rational beings. Huamn beings are almost never unselfish, frequently unethical, nearly never enlightened, and absolutely never rational- this is why communism degenerated into tyranny, and why anarchy also does whenever it arises.

    With government being restored in Somalia- an Islamic religious tyranny- we can’t use that for an example anymore. Instead I say: could you defend your family and home, strictly by your own power and strength, if your home was in Sadr City, Bagdad- a district where even American troops won’t enter willingly?

  • jnice

    Ian, I watched my local news last night, and was also disappointed in how they kept saying “Fourth of July”, “July 4th”, but not “Independence Day”!

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    So Kris, it is your mission to purge the LP of anarchists.

    And as far as IF my home was in Sadr City, then yes, I would at least try to defend it. I would have to. Because then I certainly couldn’t depend on anyone else.

    I think you do not understand the meaning of independence. I have no intention of moving to an isolated hole and growing my own food. I have no problem living in society. I appreciate the help I receive from my family, friends, and strangers and I reciprocate whenever possible. But I do not depend on anyone for my survival. I could live in a hole and grow my own food if I HAD to. I could protect myself and my family from armed gangs if I HAD to. I would at least try. The only other option would be to silently slip into the darkness.

    Since I’m not an anarchist, I believe government, when limited, provides value. But I sure as hell do not depend on it.

  • ianbernard

    Kris,

    You totally don’t understand the Free Market. People need to be selfish for it to work.

    Luckily, we’re all totally selfish, so absence of government will work just fine.

    Plus, you’re actually making points against government. Because there are bad people out there, we should not have the coercive apparatus of the state around for bad people to take control of.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Ian, can you point me to a book that you would recommend to try to convert a minarchist like myself to what Kris considers the evil dark-side?

    I have little free time, so I’m looking for one good book on anarcho-capitalism.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Oh, and Ian, if Kris decides to attempt a raid on my home, would you mind coming over with some guns and few of your anarchist friends to give me a hand in defending it? I shouldn’t have much trouble fighting him off myself, but I’d appreciate the help. I’ll pay you with beer or we can work out some other agreement.

  • nemo

    http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22Independance+Day%22%2C%22Fourth+of+July%22
    Checking regions it is pretty clear the term is far more popular in other countries.
    Naturally the fact that other countries have independance day celebrations too skews the actual graph.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Ian: Selfishness must be restrained.

    I think Randianism and Objectivism is/are bullshit because they believe that the combination of selfishness and enlightened self-interest will create utopia.

    I see it thus: perfect selfishness says, “Anything that makes me better off is moral. If I make a mutually advantageous exchange with this other person, we both come out ahead. However, if there were a way to take everything he has without any consequences, I’d come out even further ahead. Therefore, if I can steal the other person’s property without consequence, I shall certainly do so- and I shall do whatever is required to ensure there ARE no consequences.”

    “Rational self-interest” leaves no room whatever for empathy or respect for other people. It is the reason that anarchy fails- because when one government dies or collapses, selfish people create a new one which allows them to do as they like, without consequences. As a protector of liberty, it fails miserably.

  • ianbernard

    Chris, someone once pointed me to this, though I don’t know if it’s a converter:

    “Laws of the Jungle”
    http://www.geocities.com/thornton_46/jlaws.html

    I also love Harry Browne’s “Why Government Doesn’t Work”, Mary Ruwart’s “Healing our World”, and Marc Stevens’ “Adventures in Legal Land”

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Chris: I don’t want to purge the LP of anarchists. I want to get the LP out of anarchist control.

    People have talked for years about the metaphor of the Liberty Train- how you don’t have to want to go to the last stop, so long as you want to ride -part- of the way. I’m one of those partway riders- I want smaller, more restrained government and greater freedom and respect for individual rights. It is BECAUSE I want to preserve those individual rights that I abhor anarchy and oppose anarchists.

    Now, for the first time in a long time, it’s the purists who have to ask themselves: do we ride this train if it doesn’t go all the way to Anarchy Station, or do we threaten to walk if we’re not allowed to be the engineer?

    I own guns because I don’t put perfect faith in government- ha! I don’t put much faith in ANYBODY or ANYTHING. I don’t pretend, though, that I could resist a group of determined attackers by myself. I’d go down swinging, but I’d go down.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    “I don’t pretend, though, that I could resist a group of determined attackers by myself.”

    Depends on the group of attackers, but I can certainly envision a situation where I loose. How is the government going to help me when I’m dead, anyway?

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Chris: The government helps you by making it much, MUCH harder for organized gangs to run free. The system we have produces corrupt cops, abuses of freedom, long and torturous judicial tangles, and of course taxes… but it manages to put a lot of people away for being thieves, murderers, rapists, etc. It makes it highly unlikely that a bandit gang or pirate raiding band will ever attack your home.

    Put it another way: government is another word for the rules by which the biggest gang around protects its members, slaps them down for breaking the rules, and keeps other gangs from wiping it out. If you eliminate the government we have, a new gang will come along and make new rules and make a new government… and those new rules, that new goverment, probably won’t be so nice as what we have now.

    We may not be happy with the government we have, but it serves a purpose… and those who seek its destruction take an awful gamble on what comes after.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    An organized gang has made it hard for an organized gang to run free.

    Maybe I’ll organize my own gang.

  • ianbernard

    Chris, you rock. I hope you’re a member of the FSP!

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Ian, if you know someone who needs the services of an experienced large-band-gap semiconductor device physicist in NH, then I can call my realtor.

    I’m a southerner who really likes to surf and ride my motorcycle year-round, but I’d give up the year-round part without much hesitation. Unfortunately feeding, housing and clothing my wife and child takes priority. A man can only be but so hard-core when others actually do depend on him.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Chris: As you’ve probably guessed, gangs are jealous and defend their territory and perogatives with extreme prejudice.

    There’s only one thing they’re harder on than rival upstart gangs, and that’s people who try to live without a gang.

    Give you an example: a handful of anarcho-capitalists with a lot of money claimed a coral reef in the south Pacific and shipped over and dumped enough sand and rock to turn the underwater reef into an above-water island. This done, they declared themselves an independent nation.

    Within a month the king of a local island nation sent troops over and annexed the new island. The anarcho-capitalists cried foul, but in vain. They ended up lucky: all they lost was millions of dollars. Nobody got shot or killed.

    For a more recent and practical example, I point you to “JustUs Township,” Montana.

    Don’t rebel unless you either have nothing left to lose, or are damned sure you can make your rebellion successful.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    “As you’ve probably guessed, gangs are jealous and defend their territory and perogatives with extreme prejudice.”

    You’re right. The US government is a pretty nasty gang. And as I’ve pointed out already, I do what I must to avoid its wrath while maximizing my personal freedom and independence. You also keep forgetting that I am NOT an anarchist.

    But I can still call a thug a thug.

  • http://darianworden.tripod.com D Worden

    > “Huamn beings are almost never unselfish, frequently unethical, nearly never enlightened, and absolutely never rational- this is why communism degenerated into tyranny…”

    Funny, I kinda thought communism IS tyranny because it requires people to sacrifice everything for the self-appointed leaders of the people. It didn’t “degenerate” because humans aren’t good enough for it to work.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    I draw a distinction between Russia under Lenin and Russia under Stalin. Lenin severely restricted the freedom of the Russian people, but he at least (apparently) meant well by them. Just before the stroke that effectively took him out of power, he ordered the reversal of several communizing steps and a return to private enterprise because, even in the short period since the Bolsheviks took power, it was apparent that communism DIDN’T WORK.

    Stalin, on the other hand, was out for himself and nobody else, plain and simple- and it is from his example, not Lenin’s, that all the Communist regimes of the 20th Century modeled themselves. Stalin was able to do this in no small part because of the structure of communism- which takes all power away from individuals.

    Likewise, a Stalin could (and often does) arise from anarchy- with nothing to oppose him, a tyrant can (and does) impose rule where no rule exists. Ironically, at both extremes people are powerless to stop a dictator.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Your argument boils down to: Thugs exist. They create gangs. Therfore, we must have our own gang of thugs to protect us from the other thugs. That, in essence, is what government is and what its foundations are based off of. I’m not an anarchist because I believe the natural tendency of humans is to form such little gangs and attempt to legitimize them by calling them governments. But because I recognize that they exist, does not mean that I must recognize their legitimacy.

    That’s why I continue to live in America. As far as thug gangs go, the US government is not that bad. I’d still prefer to live out from under the boot, though. And I’m still going to do whatever I can to limit thug-gang’s power over me while flying under their radar.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    My point is this: “legitimacy” is a pointless concept. A government’s legitimacy or lack thereof has no effect whatever on its ability to govern.

    There is no such thing as “out from under the government boot.” So long as there are two humans living together and rules to keep them from killing one another, there is government. We can shift the boot’s position, lighten the weight, even get on the other end and control who gets stomped- ideally only those who rob and kill- but we can’t get rid of it. If one boot is removed, someone else will drop a new boot down- and it’s probably going to be a bigger, heavier boot.

    It would be nice to live without government, maybe. It would also be nice if you could power a three-story home off of a half lemon each day, too. The two are equally possible.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    “A government’s legitimacy or lack thereof has no effect whatever on its ability to govern.”

    Sure it does.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    No, it doesn’t. Governments do not govern through legitimacy, they govern through power.

    Governments do not -have- to consult the people. We have a government that does so, that traditionally derives its power from the people. The next government we have might well derive its power from nothing more than the guns of a warlord’s hired thugs.

    Legitimacy is nothing but a rhetorical tool. As the United Nations demonstrates daily, rhetoric accomplishes very little.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    The government can pass any law that it wants. That doesn’t mean that I have to obey it if I don’t find it legitimate. They can bring their guns to bear, but if enough people agree with me, then they’ll be facing off against more than just my gun.

    We may loose, but they will have failed to govern us.

    “Government” is a rhetorical tool used to confer legitimacy. They’re all just armed gangs. They use the concept of government to persuade people that they have a legitimate claim to govern your life.

    I am the only one who governs my life. Your gang may attempt to rule me through force, but only I will decide whether to obey or not to obey. Only I will decide if I will attempt to flee, stand and fight, or hand over my milk money.

  • http://republicofnh.org caleb

    Paulie, just wanted to comment on some of your concerns about the RNH.

    First, my goal is certainly not to initiate force against anyone. I inserted the line in question to establish a little historical continuity, which I believe is important. Obviously, NH will need to decentralize further, but the fact that NH is not significantly armed should be helpful in generating pockets of significant freedom (possibly even a town without a government [gasp!]) One of the FSP members is planning just such a community.

    The biggest hurdle to such a development is the fedgov, and that is why it is the first to go (besides the fact that the fedgov is instrumental in the globalist agenda for implementing one world government. Destroying the US would devastate the globalist agenda.) We believe once fedgov is gone, we will be capable of dealing with NH statists.

    Caleb