Libertarians Should Be Good Shots

Libertarians fiercely defend the 2nd Amendment and we are generally pretty good with firearms. So why are we mimicking Cheney and, at least figuratively, shooting our supporters? Why do some libertarians employ “shoot to kill” verbiage to settle personal issues? Cheney’s accident was exactly that- an accident. We are shooting our friends on purpose.

We are in election season. This year, Libertarian Party candidates have the issues on our side. Will we take seats? I sure as hell hope so but I know that it won’t be easy. It will be impossible if we keep attacking our own.

I bring this up because Michael Badnarik called me recently to ask for help getting the word out about the Texas door hanger order. I agreed but had internet issues and Stuart was kind enough to get the post published for me. That was really big of Stuart because he had previously questioned Badnarik’s campaign expenditures. When Stuart originally questioned campaign expenses, there was some debate over the appropriate amount of dollars to spend on staff lunch. In that post dialogue, we heard from people actually experienced in campaign management and I understood that we agreed to allow Mr. Hacker to do his job and question the effectiveness on the back end. Stuart set a fine example when he clicked “publish” as a favor to me. Some of the comments, though, would turn people off from even the slightest amount of inquiry.

I like Michael. I am blown away by how he has submitted to a lifestyle that few of us would live, so he can have an opportunity to bring liberty back to her most recent country. I considered throwing my hat in the ring as a paper candidate. My husband made it clear that I would find myself divorced if that idea became reality. A paper candidate has none of the hardships of an active candidate, but I could not bring myself to risk my marriage for liberty.

There are many libertarian men and women sacrificing their daily lives for liberty and there are those of us that give a few bucks and write some blog entries. Even if I don’t agree with a particular person’s campaign ideas, I know damn well that I have not uprooted my family and life to work as hard. And neither have most of the campaign critics. Give these guys some breathing room. Let them work. And, mostly, let’s practice what we preach and let the market work. If those running and those managing fail to deliver, then we can demand an explanation and if the explanation is not satisfactory, we can refuse to employ them again. But shooting our friends in the foot and bitching about a lost race is stupid. We may as well stay out of the race and save our “sponsor” dollars for target practice. If we manage to get on the ballot after target practice, we can send the argumentative “shots” where they are best directed- at the duopoly who now shits on the very things that made us freedom’s beacon in a world of tyranny.

posted Sep 20th, 2006 by michelleshinghal
  • undercover_anarchist

    “Will we take seats?”

    Let me end the suspense for you…

    The only “seats” any “libertarian” will be taking is at Outback Steakhouse when our contributions are used to make Allen Hacker and his cronies a little bit fatter and more obnoxious.

    Uh oh, lawsuit coming my way…

  • paulie

    now, that is just mean and unfair.

  • http://www.myspace.com/10forliberty Mitchell Port

    Very well put Michelle. I can’t stand all of this bitching. It’s hard enough to win any races or raise much money as a unified movement, but with all this bickering about every miniscule issue we don’t have a chance in hell.

  • tech

    I think some of these candidates might be taking seats if they were running as Republicans, Democrats, or at least independents.

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    All true, but Allen Hacker should take your advice as well. In fact, I believe Allen Hacker is a hindrance to the campaign.

    Join me in promising to donate $10 to the Badnarik campaign if he fires Allen Hacker.

  • disinter

    Nigel,

    That is awesome!!

  • George Whitfield

    Amen to your article, Michelle. We Libertarians have a challenge in avoiding the negativism and criticism mud puddles and keeping positive on the high ground and supporting our candidates however we can. I am encouraged and inspired by our candidates like Michael Badnarik, Bill Peirce, Michael Garrett Hayes, Allan Buckley, Bob Smithers, Dave Schlosser, Hardy Machias, etc. We just have to stay focused on winning our liberties by achieving electoral success for our Libertarian Party candidates.

  • disinter

    For those that don’t know, Hacker has conveniently paid himself nearly $100,000 (probably more by now) out of under $400k in total donations. Take this into full consideration before sending any more money to this campaign. Additionally, if you would like to see Hacker’s “professionalism” in action, just let me know and I will point you to various examples.

  • http://www.phillies2008.com George Phillies

    We should run the best candidate we can for as many positions as possible. A minimum-activity candidate, someone who fills out paper inquiries and does phone interviews, is a good start.

    For more discussion of this, on why we should run as many candidates as possible and what types of candidates we have, read my tactical manual Stand Up For Liberty http://www.3mpub.com/phillies .

  • Graham

    Divorce for beng a paper candidate?, wtf.

  • Derrick

    The Libertarian Party should be the political home for anyone who falls in the libertarian quadrant of the Nolan chart, IMHO. (Someone else here said that once, and it really stuck with me.)

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    A score of 131 or higher should be sufficient.

    http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi-bin/purity.cgi

    Remember, if you’re not with us, you’re with the terrorists who hate us for our freedom.

  • Timothy West

    I got a 48.

    31-50 points: Your libertarian credentials are obvious. Doubtlessly you will become more extreme as time goes on.

    No, actually I’m becoming less extreme. Some years back, I scored in the low 90′s.

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    I completely agree with Derrick.

  • michelleshinghal

    Took the test- scored 128. I left a few questions unanswered- I did not feel that my true answer would have been neatly boxed in the choices. If forced for an answer, I am sure to have scored higher.

  • michelleshinghal

    One last thought before bed: It is perfectly acceptable to disagree on nuance and still support the general idea. That is, I think, the reason we have such a good time here. We disagree about whether a great show is really better in HD over standard format. The issues I am to vote on are standard format- the issues we fight over here are in HD. Blades of grass make a great pic- people generally see the grass on another’s screen (pub football games) and then go out to get their own. There is room for purists and everybody else. We are all looking for the sharpest image.
    And, Graham, yes. Big D in Big D over paper candidacy. My husband would shit a brick if he read what I post here. He knows I think it- he is terrified that I speak it.

  • tech

    Yeah, Derrick- and I feel you- but hardly anyone ever votes for Libertarian Party candidates. They never win national elections.

    Maybe we as libertarians could do much better at this in instead focusing our time, money, effort, campaigns on working with and pulling the only two relevant parties up towards our quadrant.

    Ron Paul ran Republican and is in congress. Frank Gonzalez is running Democrat and has probably the best chance out of any libertarian to win this november.

    What was the LP doing when Russ Feingold was the only senator to vote against the Patriot Act? Struggling to get one percent votes?

    Yes I’m a stuck record. Great is libertarianism but a freaking political joke is the LP. It’s frustrating.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    Frank Gonzalez is running Democrat and has probably the best chance out of any libertarian to win this november.

    I wish you were right but incumbents are 99% safe nationwide and the district is very heavily Republican, which is why Frank was able to get the Demo nomination. He might do a little better than when he ran as a Libertarian but probably not much.

    Since others have posted their Caplan test scores mine was 154. I think school vouchers are a dangerous back door to government control of private schools and I have problems with the “capitalist” part of Anarcho-capitalist for reasons laid out by Roderick Long, Charles Johnson and Kevin Carson.

    Maybe 153; logically the same should apply to housing vouchers, but perhaps I haven’t thought that one through as well.

    I think Michelle’s 128 is close enough for government work, given her explanation.

    What’s the fear factor? Reputation, safety, both?

  • tech

    I scored 80.

    That’s a whole lot more points than our government currently scores.

    Paulie, you think Smither will get a higher vote % than Gonzalez? Badnarik?

    It can’t hurt us to run D and R wherever and whenever we can. We’ll still get the libertarian vote. But we’ll also get votes from people who vote D or R.

  • Devious David

    I encourage paper candidates, but they need to at least take what is given to them such as interviews and so forth. There has to be a minimum amount of “activity” and willingness to accept the position if they win. That’s a low burden of requirements. After reading that post earlier this week, or was it late last week – that the Libertarian candidates wouldn’t even take an interview! Most of the time we can’t beat them over the head for an interview, let alone an endorsement!

    Vouchers are a back door way to regulate private/home schools. Period. End of story.

    But, on topic… I am quite confident that we will learn a lot from the Badnarik campaign. It will be interesting to see a post-mortem. At this juncture, I think it’s best to support the campaign and complain when it’s over. That should be the policy for everyone here. If you want to burn Hacker in effigy afterwards, go ahead.

  • Devious David

    If he’s as bad as some people say, then it will be proven and all the evidence will be available. You can hang him them. It’s just counterproductive to go on the attack right now, especially when Badnarik has to take the brunt of it. Badnarik is the candidate, folks. Not Hacker.

    Libertarians need to support Libertarian candidates and shut up until it’s over. Then, if you have a beef, you’ll have all the ammo you need.

  • Devious David

    I kinda think about it like MMA fights. All that trash talk they have em do to hype the fight up. It almost never goes the way the fighters say. It’s especially stupid when they talk a bunch of trash and then get knocked out in the first round. The proof is in the pudding. All that trash talk for nothing. The only thing that mattered was the fight itself, not the trash talk beforehand.

    If a campaign isn’t being run the way you would run it, then shut up and go run one yourself. Quit the smack talk until it’s over and then go ahead and dissect it. Obstructing the campaign is to work against ourselves. The other parties, as horrible as they are, manage to have some DISCIPLINE.

    P.S. I apologize for the little cut I made at Liberty Mix that insinuated an anti-Badnarik campaign position. It really was meant as a joke, rather than a criticism.

  • http://www.myspace.com/10forliberty Mitchell Port

    I do not know the specifics of Hackers involvement/compensation in Badnarik’s campaign, but I do believe that he is a little to hostile to Libertarian supporters. I love Badnarik, and he is the one that made me become active in the Libertarian Party, but I believe Hacker is too argumentative in most instances. I think it is really a turnoff and that all of these situations could be handled more civilly.

  • Stuart Richards

    There’s a lot to be said for unity, and a lot to be said for constructive criticism too. Unfortunately we seem to be disunited and our criticism isn’t constructive in the slightest.

    If Hacker’s doing all the things he’s alleged to be doing… well, we’ll find out about it after the election. But until then, we need to support Badnarik. Yes, ask questions if things look off. Blind loyalty is bullshit. But don’t slander people until it’s over and the truth is plain for all to see.

    If we do that, then if they’re operating as honestly and excellently as possible, we’ll have boosted them as high as we possibly could have, which is good for all of us. And if they weren’t… then they won’t be able to scapegoat all the backbiting as to why they fared so poorly.

    Give these men all the rope they ask for, and then some. Whether they save us all or hang themselves with it, only time will tell. But right here, right now, support them.

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    By the way, I scored a 133 on that test. Like all the other test scores I’ve gotten, I don’t think it means much.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Guys,

    I appreciate the more supportive tone. Stuart is almost right that Michael takes the brunt of the abuse that happens here. Almost: it’s the campaign that takes the brunt of it. We lost a good fundraiser from staff after he became demoralized having to answer the same old misgiven challenges by would-be donors who read or hear about what happens here. Who did that hurt more, me, or Michal, or all of you?

    It’s time for Mike Nelso to curl up in a comfy place somewhere and study real life; get to know how things really work, and move out of his folks’ basement. To help that along a little bit, I’m going to answer Nelson’s biggest falshood.

    I have not paid myself much of anything in this campaign. My credit cards are all maxed and being suspended, I have $8 in my pocket, and I may have to withdraw the RV from the campaign just to have a place to live.

    The campaign has paid a large amount of money to my consulting firm, but that’s not ipso facto money that goes to me.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    There are 4-5 people on my staff who make this campaign happen, and they and operating expenses are where the money goes. And none of them has been paid what I’d hoped.

    When I sell my property in CA I’m going to pay them out of pocket.

    Meanwhile, including the expenses with any personally-received money, we evil people here at the campaign are averaging slightly over $5.35 an hour.

    For this, I get to be lied about and ridiculed, all so I can protect my staff from the same at the hands of a few mindless uninformed twits who, it turns out, either never understand what they read in an FEC report or post by someone they’re having malicious fun with, or they truly are malicious. In Mike Nelson’s case, I have decided it’s true malice. I’ve answered questions already too many times only to have my words perverted for his sick self-satisfaction.

    Then a new person come along and hears Nelson, sees no rebuttal & little defense, thinks there’s something to it, and joins the chorus.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    The end result already is that Mike Nelson has had a provable negative effect on the campaign from the beginning. With the help of only a couple of parrots he has guaranteed that we didn’t raise what we should have from our existing friends.

    You want to know where the radio and TV is? Ask Mike Nelson why he was right there on FacePage trying to squash a fundraising project we didn’t even start. You want to know where the yard signs are? Ask Mike Nelson and his lackeys who’ve scared people away, alleging that we’re not running to win and that the only TV in this campaign will be the giant plasma TV I buy with the misappropriated funds.

    You want to know why the LP has always been a miserable failure? Look at the Mike Nelsons you’ve tolerated, whose evil utterances you’ve even mindlessly defended as freedom of speech.

    We still have the possibility of winning this race. No thanks to Mike Nelson, his parrots, his defenders, or even those who simply let him slide.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    In all of this, how do HoT and TPW justify giving forum to libel and subversion of our candidates? They say that they’re just forums.

    Yet the also claom to be news sources. And sometimes they even publish actual news.

    But in maintaining destructively low standards in their editorial policy, all they have accomplished is to prove the mainstream’s claim that they are not ready for prime time.

    Yes, I called Steve G. I asked him to save HoT from being a liable party to defamtion per se. And while I see that some of the HoT bloggers are concerned about objectivity, I see that Nelson continues to spew hatred and misrepresentations. I understand that we all want to be resoectful of liberty, but I think that if you apply the other half, that one’s liberty ends where another’s rights begin, HoT has failed miserably.

    Of that, I am sorely disappointed.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    I would be ashamed to be a blogger in company with Mike Nelson, he of personal vendetta from the beginning because I didn’t buy his first stupid idea for the campaign. But we’ve been through all that. I’ve explained all that. I’ve answered every question more than once, except strategy, which only a moron would insist I make public.

    I don’t care what people think of me, if I did I’d still be kissing my first boss’ ass for minumum wage, voting the way my mommie did and trooping along sending kids to die in corporate wars.

    But I do care about the LP. I’m not going to fade away like so many good people have when they were incessantly abused by insular dolts who presume to define libertarianism to their own ends and then attack every new person for not meeting their perverted demands. Or who try to dictate how campaigns and business should be run without ever even having been successful in a real job over time.

    So.

    For the next 7 weeks, it’s Badnarik for Congress.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    After that, it’s hell-fire and brimstone war against the domestic enemies within the party.

    I’ve waked up angry and frustrated the last time.

    Anybody who doesn’t want to be collateral damage, all you have to do is cease condoning bad behavior.

    Well, I’m in trouble with Michael now. He’s the one you’ve damaged, he’s the one losing the most sleep, and he has asked me not to (no, as much as told me) not to post here again. He’s right, it has never done any good, everything gets twisted and lied about, and he’s the one who suffers.

    But I stubbornly think it’s wrong to let liars and thieves run the world unopposed.

    Be that as it may, I’m done here. HoT and TPW have, through their irresponsibility, lost all credibility with us both. That’s too bad, for he does have some real friends there.

    For me, they’re just the bad taste in my mouth when I wake up in the morning after too little sleep trying to make up the damage in overtime.

    Now we all know where we stand.

    -0-

  • disinter

    It’s time for Mike Nelso to curl up in a comfy place somewhere and study real life; get to know how things really work, and move out of his folks’ basement.

    You mean like, if I was being paid $100,000 to run a high-profile campaign, I should probably treat protential supporters with respect? Something that you don’t know how to do. Your history of being a pompus ass to anyone the questions your stupidity goes back for months, and not only on this blog.

    My credit cards are all maxed and being suspended, I have $8 in my pocket, and I may have to withdraw the RV from the campaign just to have a place to live.

    Yes, you and Badnarik have this sob story down pat.

  • disinter

    For this, I get to be lied about and ridiculed, all so I can protect my staff from the same at the hands of a few mindless uninformed twits who, it turns out, either never understand what they read in an FEC report or post by someone they’re having malicious fun with, or they truly are malicious.

    I see you are still working on your “professionalism”. And donors pay you $100,000 to act like this?

    In Mike Nelson’s case, I have decided it’s true malice. I’ve answered questions already too many times only to have my words perverted for his sick elf-satisfaction.

    Really? Give me one example.

  • disinter

    The end result already is that Mike Nelson has had a provable negative effect on the campaign from the beginning. With the help of only a couple of parrots he has guaranteed that we didn’t raise what we should have from our existing friends.

    Already trying to point blame for your miserable failures on others?

    You want to know where the radio and TV is? Ask Mike Nelson why he was right there on FacePage trying to squash a fundraising project we didn’t even start.

    I am not sure what FacePage is, but yes, I would like to know where the radio and TV ads are.

    You want to know where the yard signs are?

    Umm, you have raised (and paid yourself $100,000 of) almost $400,000 and you don’t have yard signs??? And you really wonder why people think you are incompetent?

  • disinter

    In all of this, how do HoT and TPW justify giving forum to libel and subversion of our candidates? They say that they’re just forums.

    Yet the also claom to be news sources. And sometimes they even publish actual news.

    But in maintaining destructively low standards in their editorial policy, all they have accomplished is to prove the mainstream’s claim that they are not ready for prime time.

    More desperate attempts to place the blame of your gross failures on others… good work!

  • disinter

    And while I see that some of the HoT bloggers are concerned about objectivity, I see that Nelson continues to spew hatred and misrepresentations.

    Informing donors that you are pocketing $100,000 of their hard-earned money is “hatred”? You should work for Bush. He likes incomeptence.

    Of that, I am sorely disappointed.

    Where do I send the box of tissue? Do you prefer Kleenex?

  • disinter

    Yes, I called Steve G. I asked him to save HoT from being a liable party to defamtion per se.

    More threats? You really know how to win over supporters! I am waiting for you to sue me. Give it your best shot.

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    Allen, any fundraising damage rests on you squarely. Instead of being conciliatory and trying to make everyone believe that you were doing valid things with the money, you simply spouted invective. I support Michael Badnarik and I wish him the best, but I can’t stomach you.

  • disinter

    But we’ve been through all that. I’ve explained all that. I’ve answered every question more than once, except strategy, which only a moron would insist I make public.

    Only a moron would make your “top secret plan” public because he/she would fear the inevitable ridicule of how idiotic it is.

    I don’t care what people think of me

    Then why are you on here making a complete fool of yourself? Aren’t you being paid $100,000 to “run” a campaign?

    Anybody who doesn’t want to be collateral damage, all you have to do is cease condoning bad behavior.

    Define “bad behavior”.

    For the next 7 weeks, it’s Badnarik for Congress.

    Well it’s about damn time. Maybe you will earn that $100,000+. I predict you will be back here crying and trying to place blame for your failures on others.

  • disinter

    But I stubbornly think it’s wrong to let liars and thieves run the world unopposed.

    And you were going to sue others for defamation? Are we a little hypocritical today?

    Now we all know where we stand.

    Hunni, we knew where you stood when you started lambasting supporters on various blogs many months ago.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    I also scored 80, but it surely would have been higher if not for some poorly designed questions. For example:

    “Would school/housing vouchers be an improvement over government schools/housing?”

    First of all, it’s not a choice *between* vouchers and government schools – you’re still going to have government schools even with vouchers. I certainly am for greater educational choice, but I agree the Devious One on the danger of vouchers corrupting private schools by pulling them into the domain of government oversight.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    Paulie, you think Smither will get a higher vote % than Gonzalez? Badnarik?

    Well, being in a two-way race makes thing a lot easier. So does not having an incumbent in the race. The quality of the campaign has a lot to do with it. Kinda hard to gauge all the factors, but all three have a steep uphill climb. Good luck to all of them.

    It can’t hurt us to run D and R wherever and whenever we can. We’ll still get the libertarian vote. But we’ll also get votes from people who vote D or R.

    Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage of major parties is lack of control over the process. There’s no structure to build beyond each individual campaign, and voters don’t know as easily what the candidate stands for, nor is the vote interpreted as an expression of libertarian sentiment necessarily. Also, it frequently means being eliminated in the primary round, before a lot of people are paying attention to the election.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    Robert and David –

    out of curiosity, did you answer the housing voucher question in the same way as the school voucher question? Why or why not? I’m trying to think through that one.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Let’s settle this once and for all: Michael Badnarik deserves ZERO support. It’s not enough for him to fire Allen Hacker at this point.

    Come on, now.. Hacker is threatenning to sue HoT!! How much more does this fascist need to do before you people get off Badnarik’s Republican dick? Where will the limit be? Does the Badnarik campaign need to start rounding up Jews before you see him for what he is?

  • disinter

    undercover,

    That is kinda what I am thinking…

  • Devious David

    You folks make me sick. Truly and utterly ill. As I said, give em enough rope if he’s so bad. Then crucify him AFTER the campaign. Until then you are just worthless bitches in the sandbox.

    You are really picking a fight with your words, undercover_anarchist. You haven’t the faintest clue what you are talking about. Go find video (all 8 hours) of Badnariks Constitution class and see how your baseless and utterly ridiculous allegations stand up. Fuck you, sir.

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    Wait, since when is Badnarik remotely Republican? That makes no damn sense. I think Badnarik’s a good guy, he’s just hired a douche of a campaign manager.

  • Timothy West

    Badnarik is not a Republican. That’s just bullshit attack mode. Michael has worked tirelessly for the party. I happen to not care to support him in his current race for my own reasons, but he’s no Republican.

    My concern now is that he has crossed the rubicon into being a ‘professional’ LP candidate who will run for major office 3 times over the space of 5 years. I think he likes running for office and does it early and often. I dont know what that means, if anything. But I think it’s a spot on observation.

    There are valid criticisms of Badnarik’s campaign that need to be answered under oath IMO, but doing so can wait until after the election.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    UA, what’s up with your referring to Badnarik as a Republican? From what I can tell, he’s pretty much libertarian to the core. And you seem to have a penchant for seeing a racist hiding behind every tree. You’ve bashed Lew Rockwell, Ron Paul, Michael Badnarik, and I don’t even remember who else. If these folks don’t qualify as libertarian, then I don’t know who does.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    paulie,

    I chose ‘No’ to both questions since I have reservations about the whole voucher concept, whether they be for education or housing. I’d much prefer the government just butt out completely and let the marketplace, including private charity organizations, fulfill those needs.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    I chose ”˜No’ to both questions since I have reservations about the whole voucher concept, whether they be for education or housing. I’d much prefer the government just butt out completely and let the marketplace, including private charity organizations, fulfill those needs.

    That’s a valid and logical point. Yet I reflexively answered yes to the housing question, and no to schools. Looking at it afterwards that did not quite sit right since logically both answers should be the same.

    Badnarik as a Republican? From what I can tell, he’s pretty much libertarian to the core.

    He’s a constitutionalist/libertarian with right/conservative leanings.

    And you seem to have a penchant for seeing a racist hiding behind every tree. You’ve bashed Lew Rockwell, Ron Paul, Michael Badnarik, and I don’t even remember who else. If these folks don’t qualify as libertarian, then I don’t know who does.

    There are some alternative approaches to libertarianism not from the right (cont)

  • Stuart Richards

    You know, Allen, we’re supporting your campaign but you gotta stop with the friendly fire.

    HoT is a news source, and news sources don’t typically censor reader comments, on the basis that they really don’t like a candidate, at least. This libertarian blog isn’t going to be the first to start, I don’t imagine… but then again, if VanDyke wants to do that, it is his property and he can do whatever he likes with it, by God.

    Mike Nelson has been chosen to be a blogger here, but in that capacity he hasn’t done anything against you as a blogger that he wouldn’t have been able to do as an average commenter. He hasn’t posted stories against you, he’s restricted his allegations and his attacks to the comments section… which even there, I’m not sure is good, but it seems to me that at least he’s not abusing his role as a blogger.

    Name us as a party in a lawsuit and you’ll just deliver a huge blow to the libertarian movement. VanDyke doesn’t have the time to handle something like that.

  • Stuart Richards

    Besides, with all the work he does with other campaigns… you’d be hurting unrelated campaigns, as well as one of the strongest libertarian blogs on the ‘net.

    Do you really want to spite the face?

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    Sam Konkin
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Edward_Konkin_III

    Karl Hess after the mid60s
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Hess

    Rothbard briefly in the late 60s-early 70s, to a degree
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

    Roderick Long
    http://www.praxeology.net

    Charles Johnson
    http://radgeek.org/

    Kevin Carson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carson

    and many more….

  • nsarwark

    What Tim West said in comment #48. FYI, I was a large donor to his Presidential campaign and have given some money to the Congressional campaign, but don’t plan on giving more at this time.

  • David W

    Where did Badnariks dig this Allen Hacker guy up from? This was my first experience with this character and the unprofesionalism is remarkable! If Libertarian candidates have a history of hiring campaign managers such as this Hacker dude, no wonder they get only 1% of the vote.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Paulie, I’m well aware that some come to libertarianism from a “right” perspective while others from the “left”. Personally, it doesn’t really matter to me because the philosophy of freedom is what it is. The only (minor) difference I see is that one libertarian person/candidate my have a different prioritization of issues than another. In any case, I see nothing to gain by bashing other libertarians whose issue preferences are somewhat different.

    In UA’s case, he seems to imagine that anyone associated with LewRockwell.com is a closet racist and that Michael Badnarik is no better. Such implications require compelling evidence to be taken seriously and thus far I’ve seen none.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    There’s definitely some of that sentiment in the LRC crowd. I would certainly not say everyone. I think UA might be referring to the immigration issue. It’s true that a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment is racist in nature, but that’s not universally true; for example, many (but not most) Mexican-Americans also support immigration quotas and enforcement as well as curtailing welfare benefits to immigrants. But there’s definitely real racism in our midst so we should not turn a blind eye to it, either.

  • ZanderC

    > And, Graham, yes. Big D in Big D over paper candidacy. My
    > husband would shit a brick if he read what I post here. He
    > knows I think it- he is terrified that I speak it.

    Perhaps then a divorce would be better for you. I ran as a candidate and if my spouse ever told me she’d divorce me for running for office, I’d tell her that I’ll have divorce papers ready for her tomorrow.

  • DAP

    A little late, but I scored a 138.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Paulie, just to clarify, is your LRC referring to LewRockwell.com or Liberty Reform Caucus? I’m assuming the former. Sure enough, some on the anti-immigration side are motivated by racist sentiments, but I’ve never seen any evidence of that from what I’ve read on their site. Futhermore, there doesn’t even seem to be much of a consensus there, either for or against, immigration, much like the divide on the issue amongst LP members in general. Perhaps UA’s perception of racism at LewRockwell.com comes more from their pro-Confederate, states rights, anti-Lincoln views. I think this is more likely, but I’ll gladly leave it to him to clarify.

  • Stuart Richards

    Supporting the Confederacy doesn’t mean supporting racism. Blacks fought on both sides, and it wasn’t the Confederates that killed 1 million blacks through negligence.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    It’s clear enough to me, if you delve into the subject deeper than what’s taught in government schools, that the War Between the States had relatively little to do with slavery (and racism) and much to do with Lincoln’s desire to appease his mercantilist supporters in the north. Nevertheless, the masses cling to the popular myth of Lincoln as the Great Emancipator saving blacks from the evil white southern racists.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    Paulie, just to clarify, is your LRC referring to LewRockwell.com or Liberty Reform Caucus?

    The former.

    Futhermore, there doesn’t even seem to be much of a consensus there, either for or against, immigration,

    True, it’s not unanimous.

    much like the divide on the issue amongst LP members in general.

    An unfortunate reflection of the party’s excessive tilt to the right. Neither this nor, especially, the war should be controversial among libertarians.

    Perhaps UA’s perception of racism at LewRockwell.com comes more from their pro-Confederate, states rights, anti-Lincoln views.

    Dunno, I guess we can await clarification. It may also be such things as defending the beating of Rodney King.

    Supporting the Confederacy doesn’t mean supporting racism.

    No, but it’s often perceived that way and in many cases that can be the motivation – even when the stated reasons are different.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Well, folks,

    Here’s how he does it:

    Allen: Yes, I called Steve G. I asked him to save HoT from being a liable party to defamtion per se.

    Nelson: More threats? You really know how to win over supporters! I am waiting for you to sue me. Give it your best shot.

    Comment 39 by Mike Nelson ”” 2006-09-20 @ 10:14 am

    Nice twist, Mike, you even sucked Stuart into that innuendo.

    Now you can explain to others, I won’t be here, how my asking Steve to protect HoT from necessary inclusion in your lawsuit was a threat. It’s a rather detailed quirk of law that some of them might care about.

    Stuart: thanks for the level head for the most part, but you gotta take more care with this guy. Now he’s got you saying that I threatened HoT, with just a subtle twist of the tongue. That’s how every one of these lies started. Thanks for trying, that’s the only reason I replied.

    Most of you are great people. Some of you don’t read well. It is what it is, and I’ll see you later.

    -0-

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli

    It’s clear enough to me, if you delve into the subject deeper than what’s taught in government schools, that the War Between the States had relatively little to do with slavery (and racism) and much to do with Lincoln’s desire to appease his mercantilist supporters in the north.

    On the one hand there’s some truth to that but on the other, the articles of secession of the various states mentioned the slavery issue prominently. Also, the South could have won independence if they only ended slavery right then – Europe would have been on their side.

    Chattel slavery would have been doomed in an independent south anyway without the fugitive slave laws and with industrialization coming. They really shot themselves in the foot by hanging on to it – what else motivated such monumental stupidity except racism? Not that there wasn’t plenty of it on the northern side, too.

  • disinter

    Hacker,

    I thought you said you were “done here”.

    Somehow, I knew you would be back to insult at least one more person before you went back to your padded room…

  • Stuart Richards

    Mike, for the love of God, just cool it.

    I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, but don’t add anymore fuel to the fire.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    I used the term “Republican” to convey a) His right-wing leanings, and b) The utter, DeLay-like corruption of his organization. I didn’t ever allege him to be a racist, but yes, he is. His border marxism certainly doesn’t have a libertarian foundation. I see racists hiding behind every tree because they’re not very hard to find in this 99.999% white, 98.5% male, 95% “conservative,” 90% wacko party.

  • disinter

    Stuart,

    Fuck off.

  • http://freelancify.com Nigel Watt

    UA:
    “Peaceful immigrants should be allowed to enter the US at conveniently located Customs and Immigration stations, subject only to brief vetting to ensure that they are not terrorists or criminals, and reasonable consideration of the nation’s ability to assimilate them in keeping with its national interests.

    Unreasonable restrictions and arbitrary quotas should not leave potential productive citizens with no options other than to remain destitute elsewhere or to place their lives at risk by attempting to cross the border at remote and dangerous locations, often under the guidance of ruthless “coyotes” who are as likely to leave them to die as to get them safely across, and then only to lead embarrassingly criminal lives of fear of detection, detention and deportation.”

    That doesn’t sound like Marxism to me. I might not agree with it, but damn.

  • David W

    Where did this Mike Nelson character crawl out from? From what I gather he is a blogger here. Sorry never pay much attention to the writer’s names. The unprofesionalism is remarkable! If this is the way Libertarian’s confront disagreements, no wonder they only get 1% of the vote on election day. Now I think I know what may be coming from this dude Mike, so before you tell me to “f-off” too, please take a moment and try and act like an adult Mike.

  • http://www.lpalabama.org/blog/14 paulie cannoli
  • http://www.titaniumgirl.blogspot.com elle

    I support Michael – because he lives what he preaches daily. I don’t think I have what it takes to do what he does day in and day out. I’m sending a check next week – that man works hard and I feel so bad that he has been ridiculed. We’re all on the same side if we support, promote and LIVE the cause which is liberty.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Mr. Watt… I think you caught me in error. I thought I had previously read anti-immigrantism from Badnarik, and no, I did not take the time to verify my assumptions before making post #69, so it should be disregarded as a mistake on my part. That said, I didn’t allege him to be a racist (prior to that post) but I was accused of doing so… Interesting.

  • tech

    I don’t care if Michael leans Republican. Good. Maybe that could help him get elected.

    The American government currently scores very low on that libertarian test. I don’t care about arguing 80 vs 160. We’re all the good guys. Let’s think about focusing on the task at hand. On reality, priority, and changing the situation. 80 and 160 are the same thing in that real world out there. We can’t cross these bridges of intra-quadrant differences because we’re a hundred miles from them.

    This is the prime reason I’m really pissed off at what the LP is. Who the fuck cares how libertarian a party is that doesn’t even get 1%. That’s hilarious, not a political party.

    At this climate, -anyone- who runs for any office that will decentralize more than centralize is libertarian enough for me. As far as how much libertarianizing do I think should be done to our nation, well that is an argument I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE. Let’s make that the relevant argument.

  • tech

    Fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. But not our friends and allies! Fight the stupidity that is government outlawing of cannabis. Fight the stupidity that is government involvement in things like marriage.

    And teach, teach, teach, teach, teach. I feel really great talking with people at work about relevant ideas and finding all kinds of agreement, and cementing that. I feel like I’m planting wonderful seeds and helping the cause.

  • disinter

    Stuart: thanks for the level head for the most part, but you gotta take more care with this guy. Now he’s got you saying that I threatened HoT, with just a subtle twist of the tongue.

    Perhaps you forgot that you said the following?

    Public Notice:

    I, Allen Hacker, claim a common-law property right in my reputation; since failure to defend same is often mistakenly taken by the public to be admission, I have decided to vigorously defend my reputation by taking aggressive legal action against libelous statements made here and elsewhere by irresponsible persons, and where appropriate, their facilitators.

    Irresponsibility is the antithesis of libertarianism.

    -0-

    http://hammeroftruth.com/2006/09/14/a-message-from-badnarik/#comment-168598

  • disinter

    Where did Badnariks dig this Allen Hacker guy up from? This was my first experience with this character and the unprofesionalism is remarkable! If Libertarian candidates have a history of hiring campaign managers such as this Hacker dude, no wonder they get only 1% of the vote.

    See the following thread for more delightfulness:

    http://badnarik.org/supporters/blog/2006/03/01/we-get-letters/#comments

  • disinter

    Yet more:

    Mr. Hacker might follow his own advice about focusing on the positive.

    In his own words: “Of course, the LP’s idiotic response was to guarantee that we’d never get the Christian and Muslim vote by prostituting itself to the feminist movement. But I understand that: so many Libertarian men are so lucky to get any sex at all that they’ll do whatever it takes to get it.”

    Source:

    http://www.lp.org/yourturn/archives/000265.shtml

  • disinter

    “Meanwhile, in Libertarian La-La Land …”

    One day before the Aug. 25 deadline for a candidate to remove his or her name from the ballot, Badnarik called on Ankrum to withdraw from the Congressional District 10 race. His reasoning? The conservative bent of the district makes a Libertarian the only realistic challenger to a Republican. “While Mr. Ankrum is definitely a nice guy, that is not enough to win over the Republican incumbent,” said Badnarik campaign manager and committee treasurer Allen Hacker in a press release.

    http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A401182

  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    Allen,
    What kind of employee are you that you deliberately keep this going, despite your employers orders to cease and desist? If you were to drop out of this “discussion” Mike Nelson would inevitably cool his heels and drop this. By disobeying your employer you’re doing him more harm and a great disservice.
    Well, I’m in trouble with Michael now. He’s the one you’ve damaged, he’s the one losing the most sleep, and he has asked me not to (no, as much as told me) not to post here again. He’s right, it has never done any good, everything gets twisted and lied about, and he’s the one who suffers.

  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    (Sorry the quotes didn’t come through)…
    Allen,
    What kind of employee are you that you deliberately keep this going, despite your employers orders to cease and desist? If you were to drop out of this “discussion” Mike Nelson would inevitably cool his heels and drop this. By disobeying your employer you’re doing him more harm and a great disservice.

    “Well, I’m in trouble with Michael now. He’s the one you’ve damaged, he’s the one losing the most sleep, and he has asked me not to (no, as much as told me) not to post here again. He’s right, it has never done any good, everything gets twisted and lied about, and he’s the one who suffers.”

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    UA, here is your own comment regarding Badnarik in #44:

    “Does the Badnarik campaign need to start rounding up Jews before you see him for what he is?”

    While that might not have been meant to imply that he is racist, it’s certainly easy to interpret it that way. Since the remark clearly has nothing to do with his stance on immigration, of which you’ve already admitted you were in error, so what exactly led you to making this statement? Is it related to his alleged “right-wing leanings”? Since the right-wing Republicans tend to be the most vociferous defenders of Israel, that wouldn’t make any sense. I’m still anxious to know exactly “what he [Badnarik] is” that makes him so unlibertarian, assuming you actually think being libertarian is a good thing (I’m beginning to have my doubts).

  • disinter

    Robert,

    I may be wrong, but I believe the point that he was trying to make is that a large number of Badnarik supporters have their heads up their asses with regard to the level of nuttery that both Badnarik and his psycopathic “campaign manager” possess. Perhaps he sees both of these characters as a liability to the party, rather than an asset? I know I do.

  • disinter

    TPW has a new post regarding Badnarik’s campaign:

    http://thirdpartywatch.com/2006/09/21/the-badnarik-campaign/

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    MRJarrel,

    This is your courtesy response, please don’t try to turn it into yet another game.

    The libel is personal, and nobody tells me what to do in my personal defense. Michael and I have discussed this, and he was talking about trying to defend the campaign.

    And, checking your assumptions at the door, I’m not an employee at all.

    The more disturbing question might be, “Why are you, MRJarrel, so keen to jump onto a bandwagon of falsehoods?” Certainly you’ve seen no more proof from one side than the other, yet here you are, amplifying MN’s noise.

    -0-

  • Sandra Kallander

    So why are we mimicking Cheney and, at least figuratively, shooting our supporters?

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Mike, I believe it is reasonable for us libertarians to scrutinize the Badnarik campaign and I understand some of us have reasons to be leery of opening up our wallets to them. But whatever the character of Badnarik’s campaign manager, I don’t see how any of this could justify the “rounding up Jews” comment directed at Michael himself. Maybe there is some new information about him of which I’m unaware, but from the pattern I’m seeing, my guess is that this is just more of UA’s obsession with conflating any libertarian having conservative-leaning tendencies with the KKK.

  • disinter

    MRJarrel,

    That was your courtesy response, please do not respond back or question almighty Hacker in anyway. For if you do, he will threaten to sue you. You have been warned.

    Now send “every dime you have” to the Badnarik campaign at once!

  • nsarwark

    I think that people in this thread would be wise to heed to the words of Marcus Aurelius: “The best revenge is not to become like the one who wronged you.”

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Sandra,

    Who is shooting supporters?

    -0-

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    You know … screw it. If Mr. Hacker wants to play the “threaten a defamation suit” game, he can go ahead and add me to the list of respondents.

    According to statements made here which I have no reason to disbelieve, the campaign which Allen Hacker manages has raised nearly $400,000 — and it can’t even put out regular, let alone effective or even coherent, press releases. Instead we get silly shit like “Badnarik campaign calls for Democrat to withdraw.”

    Not that that‘s a matter of money. I offered to do releases for free — not even a steak at Outback — months ago, about the time I wrote to ask if they had a media plan since the campaign had generated precisely zero coverage even though it had raised more money, by two orders of magnitude, than all the Democratic candidates combined. This was the first time I got treated to the “secret plan” speech.

    Plan, schplan. (cont’d)

  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    Allen, I haven’t turned or attempted to turn anything into a game and have certainly not jumped on any bandwagon against you or MB. Show me one instance where that’s true. I certaily haven’t “amplified” anything. You’re doing that yourself by coming back and feeding Mike’s fire.
    You, OTOH are an employee of the Badnarik campaign and, by your own admission your employer told you not to post here in order to avoid doing any further damage to his campaign. This is not an assumption at all, but fact posted by you. You’ve apparently have accepted his money that makes you an employee, like it or not. The fact that you keep coming back, after being told not to by MB speaks volumes.
    By refusing to ignore Mike Nelson you’ve done more damage to MB than he ever could by egging him on to massage your ego.

  • nsarwark

    Just a point of legal information. The fact that Mr. Hacker has accepted money from the campaign does not necessarily make him an employee of the campaign. He is far more likely an independent contractor, since he has broad discretion in how he executes his duties. As such, he probably has a duty of loyalty to the campaign, but cannot be told how to do his job.

    Still, I refer people back to comment #91.

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    (cont’d from comment #93)

    400 grand, it’s mid-September and the last poll I saw had Badnarik at +/- 8%. Media penetration is still abysmal, and “last-minute blitzes” move voters from one candidate to another in the low single-digit percentage range even if they’re wildly successful.

    Where’s the goddamn beef, Mr. Hacker? “Secret plan, secret plan, secret plan” my ass. Unless you’ve got photos of Ankrum and McCaul in a menage a trois with Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor of the Dallas Book Depository or something of the sort, you got nothin’.

    I have no opinion on the possibility of malfeasance (yes, folks, there are a lot of “restaurant meal” line items, but they’re not a huge budget item in total), but at this point the only alternative explanation seems to be incompetence. When — and I’m just not seeing any “if” about it — you tank this election at under 10%, is your excuse going to be that some commenters on a blog are to blame? Get real.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Relax, Tom,

    Anybody can see the difference in what you’re talking about and the outright defamation MN posts.

    What the hell is wrong with so many of you guys that you are so damn smart and still can’t make the distinction betwwen apples and oranges?

    And just for the record, no matter wht you may think it cost the campaign, I don’t hire people whose sales pitch is, Your stuff is garbage and that’s why you need me. I tried to use you (actually did once), but your posturing got in the way. So you really have no room at all to posture around here like some wounded prince.

    -0-

  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    After reading the TPW piece I, like TK have some serious doubts about the campaign. I know candidates who have raised a helluva lot less money who have palm cards, yard signs, bill boards, bumper stickers, banners, ads and more. Does MB have those? His website certainly doesn’t reflect it. I certainly don’t begrudge any of the staff meals and also doubt they cost a significant portion of the intake. Where has all the money gone? I think people who donated deserve an explanation, if donations are to continue being made. It’s not an unreasonable thing to ask for. MB’s campaign will reflect on everyone, for good or ill. I agree with Tim West that some questioning can wait till after the election, but if MB expects to continue getting donations he needs to address the money issue and then deal with Allen.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    MRJarrel,

    You don’t get to come along late in the game and acuse me of keeping this going. This is the third time in 9 months and including the most egregious lies, that MN has pestered me into having to take time from real work to stomp him back into the slime out from which he regularly rears up.

    I’ve tried to ignore him, but he just gets more emboldened by the fact that HoT doesn’t moderate comments and people exactly like you join his accusation chorus and demand my time and Michael’s for what would be nothing more than masturbation in the basement if not for that amplification.

    Instead of asking me to shut up, you should be screaming at him to stop the slice-n-dice and back up what he says. He picked this fight, and I’m not going to take it.

    Libertarians need to stop worshipping errant speech to the detriment of truth. If you won’t take up that battle, then I must, for it is me he’s maliciously libeling. If you’d step back and just watch, you’d see that.

    -0-

  • Michael H. Wilson

    To paraphrase someoneelse “First let’s kill all the consultants”.
    Political campaigns ain’t rocket science, let alone brain surgery. They’re easy to do. People just need to list what needs to be done and then follow up on those points.
    But a number of people need to take a look for a book that is apparently making its rounds in liberal Democratic circles about how consultatnts have killed off volunteer grassroots campaigns.
    IMHO for what it is worth Libertarians need to get back to building the base and learn how to use volunteers.
    M.H.W.

  • Tom Bryant

    Allen,

    Does the Badnarik campaign have yard signs? What about literature, radio ads, tv ads, newspaper ads, etc? If so, can you quickly give a rough estimate of how many (I don’t want you spending hours generating a detailed inventory).

    Seeing as you’re willing to spend time on these blogs, I don’t think it is too much to ask that these simple questions be answered.

    Give us the facts and we’ll be able to make up our own minds. We’re a smart crew here, and we’ll know which side is right once we have the facts.

    Right now, an outsider like me, is not getting much solid information.

  • disinter

    Allen,

    Will the Badnarik campaign be issuing refunds to those donors that request them?

    If not, why?

    I am sure there are legitimate campaigns that some donors may wish to re-direct their funds to.

  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    Well, actually I do get to come along at this point in the game. You aren’t the arbiter of speech and you certainly aren’t my old man. I’ve been watching the entire debacle unfold over the last week and seen you implode due to blogosphere commentary. So far you haven’t addressed anything, other than your ire at MN and you certainly haven’t done a thing to counter his vitriolic assertions or done anything to calm the situation. In fact you have pretty much gone out of the way to inflame the situation. By continuing to feed MN you’re doing Badnarik a disservice. People have questions which you have failed to answer. If you wished to untarnish your impugned “reputation” then I would suggest you counter it with fact and reason, not schoolyard pissing matches.
    Perhaps you have failed to understand that what you do with MB’s campaign will have repurcussions beyond you and him. Libertarians do have to avoid the appearance of impropriety and right now something in TX stinks.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Tom,

    No way am I “willing” to spend this time here. The law requires that I make a diligent effort to refute libel before I can make the case.

    -0-

  • disinter

    Allen,

    Well thank goodness! We wouldn’t want something like Badnaik’s campaign, of which you are getting paid $100,000 to “manage”, get in the way of something as important as sueing blog commenters!

    Perhaps you have finally realized your “secret plan” was a joke and have already conceded defeat?

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    MRJarrel,

    I’ve done plenty, and if you read the archives you’ll see it. I’m not going to endlessly repeat myself every week or two for the new guy.

    Neither are you a rule-maker here.

    MN lies, I tell you he’s lying, and you want me to prove it? I’m guilty until…? You should be demanding that he prove it.

    Why aren’t you doing that?

    As for imploding, I’m being falsely, knowingly and malisciously accused of professional misfeasance by an obvious twister of speculation and words, and you want to criticise me?

    What’s wrong with this picture?

    -0-

  • Tom Bryant

    Allen,

    Just ignore Mike Nelson, he isn’t going to change. As for the $100k in consulting, that’s about 25%. 25% spent on overhead isn’t that bad (the charity that I contribute to spends 20%).

    There are folks like Mike whose attitude is not going to change.

    Then there are folks like me who have just started following this.

    Why didn’t you answer my questions about campaign materials?

    Should I believe Mike that you are pocketing money and buying expensive dinners, or will you give me the facts on what the campaign has done so far.

  • nsarwark

    As an unrelated aside, a quick comment on the behavior of the troll in the wild. The common Internet troll (assholus onlinus) is a nomadic beast, foraging from thread to thread in search of food. He is omnivorus, eating both praise and criticism with gusto.

    Typically, the troll finds neither, and moves on. However, if the troll finds food, he will settle down in a particular thread, eating all he is given and putting out bait for more. Once he’s found a hunting ground, nothing will displace a troll except for a complete absence of food. Attacks may enrage the troll, but will not drive him off.

    You are encouraged to observe the troll at a distance. His behavior is a wonder to behold and a sight unlike any other in nature. Feeding the trolls upsets their natural nomadic rhythms, so we urge you not to feed the trolls, no matter how tempting.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Nelson,

    Obviously, there are only two ways to shut you up. You’re lucky we took the other one out of the platform.

    Just realize this. Every time you repeat your falshoods, you increase my judgement.

    The very best thing you could do for yourself now is to stop this juvenile game before it gets so big you’ll never be able to take responsibility for it.

    You think this is all just good fun, don’t you? Well, we’ll see how much fun you have in the second half.

    -0-

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Allen, you write:

    “no matter wht you may think it cost the campaign, I don’t hire people whose sales pitch is, Your stuff is garbage and that’s why you need me.”

    1. I never asked you to “hire” me. I offered to work for free — with no claim that you “needed” me.

    2. I didn’t imply that “your stuff is garbage.” I asked (privately) why there WASN’T any stuff — and got “secret plan” in response.

    “I tried to use you (actually did once) but your posturing got in the way.”

    I worked over one prospective release for Jon Airheart, not you, advised him on how to improve future releases himself, and never heard another word. If by “posturing” you mean I passed on some basic release rules that anyone um, posturing as a “campaign manager” should already have made campaign policy, guilty.

    As much as you may want to make this into Mike Nelson v. Allen Hacker (or now, I guess, Tom Knapp v. Allen Hacker), it is, and will apparently remain, Allen Hacker v. a successful Badnarik campaign.

  • disinter

    Tom,

    When have I accused Hacker of “buying expensive dinners”?

  • disinter

    Obviously, there are only two ways to shut you up. You’re lucky we took the other one out of the platform.

    More threats from Hacker… imagine that!

    I would still like to know the answer to the following:

    Will the Badnarik campaign be issuing refunds to those donors that request them?

    If not, why?

    I am sure there are legitimate campaigns that some donors may wish to re-direct their funds to.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Nicholas,

    Would that you were more correct.

    But the troll in question has been slain twice before after ignoring him didn’t work, and he will never stop until he loses either his forum or his keyboard.

    By pretending to ask questions and crying foul when his victims don’t engage, he draws in patsies who then blow it all out of proportion.

    It is not the refutation that feeds the troll, it is the amplification. The past has proven this twice.

    So while you have presented an artful suggestion, you might want to clearly direct it at the real feeders.

    I didn’t come back into this until my fundraiser quit because so many people deamnded that Nelson’s falsehoods be proven wrong. You know a negative can’t be proven, and there’s the trap.

    Neslon has damaged the campaign, too many of the readers here have condoned or even joined him, and I’m not going to let the LP continue to be the domain of the irresponsible. Too many decent people deserve better.

    -0-

  • disinter

    I am willing to personally finance a mass mailing to all donors to the Badnarik campaign encouraging them to demand a refund for there donations. Can I get this info from the FEC reports? I can’t find their street addresses….

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Side notes on the other side of the ledger:

    * For what it’s worth, I doubt that Mr. Hacker has “taken home” anything close to the $100K figure Mr. Nelson keeps throwing out. He’s a contractor, which means that he probably covers a number of expenses from his “management fees.”

    * Also for what it’s worth, if Michael Badnarik is elected to the US House of Representatives this November due to his efforts, Mr. Hacker will have been worth every last cent of whatever amount he DID “take home” and then some.

    I hope that happens — and as a matter of fact, if Badnarik clears 20% of the vote, I’ll personally apologize to Mr. Hacker for having doubted him. I’ll acknowledge that his “secret plan” was a humdinger that was just beyond my feeble capacity to imagine, and I’ll study what he did and try to learn from it.

    But, from where I sit (which is admittedly far away), the campaign looks like a $400K bust, doomed to come it at under 10% of the vote and with few if any side benefits to the LP.

  • nsarwark

    While the troll is a solitary creature, he is also a gregarious one. While he will not stay in one place alone, he will also fight to drive other trolls from his claimed territory.

    Ironically, this sometimes results in a symbiotic relationship, where two or more trolls can sustain themselves for weeks on nothing but their attacks against each other.

    When this behavior occurs, bystanders are encouraged to quietly slip off to somewhere else, so as to allow the trolls a secluded space to engage in their dominance rituals. They are also cautioned that trying to separate fighting trolls is like trying to break up a fight between dogs; ineffective and likely to injure the bystander.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Yes, Nicholas, that was definitely helpful.

  • http://articulatecampaigns.com Allen Hacker

    Thanks, Tom.

    Fair is all I ask. The sabotage Neslon has done and now threatens to do is simply appalling and should be censured by everyone here.

    By the way, it would be a federal crime for Nelson to mail the contributors list as he says.

    Should I be pilloried for asking that you all ask him to obey the law? Or will his defenders wake up?

    -0-

  • disinter

    By the way, it would be a federal crime for Nelson to mail the contributors list as he says.

    Well thank goodness you told me this before I did it! How would this be a crime? Is the answer to this “top secret” as well?

  • disinter

    I can hardly contain my laughter at this point. This is too funny.

  • vforvandyke

    I’m going to ask everyone to cease with the Badnarik/Hacker slamming and speculation until after the campaign.

    For the naysayers, I would like to point to a quote: “give someone enough rope (to hang themselves).” If you folks are right, do you really want to give Hacker the ammo needed to point the finger back at you for destroying the campaign? Think about it.

    For Allen Hacker: You aren’t doing yourself much justice by spending time responding to these derogatory comments about your management. But while I’ve reserved my judgement on your campaign, I will say that responding to criticism by threat of lawsuits isn’t doing your argument any justice.

    So let’s all take a few steps back, stop poking each other with sharp sticks until after the elections, and then come back to reexamine Badnarik’s success and/or failures when there’s tangible results on the table.

    This discussion is now closed.

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