Feds Claim Liberty Dollar Usage is Illegal

Buy and sell with the Liberty Dollar? You’re now an outlaw. I hope this publicity serves to make the Liberty Dollar more popular. It’s clear that what the Treasury used to consider an amusing experiment has now become a threat worth outlawing.

Someone introduces real silver backed currency, and they outlaw it. Can’t have any competition now, can we?

Fucking government.
-FTL_Ian

posted by ianbernard
  • http://www.vanguardist.org Manuel Lora
  • http://UnCivilDefence.blogspot.com MRJarrell

    “”The United States Mint is the only entity that can produce coins,” Bailey says”

    Guess they’ll be raiding Franklin Mint and every other commenmerative coin manufacturer if this is true. Of course they don’t have a leg to stand on and Justice is full of shite, as usual. Guess I’ll have to buy more now and start using them regularly.

  • Brian

    The Liberty Dollar is a ponzi scheme and is misleading.

  • Jeff

    A Ponzi scheme is when you use later investors money to pay off earlier investors. Not when you buy a coin for it’s face value. These coins are bought to be spent not redeemed later. I paid less than $10 for many and just the silver value is ~$14 right now!

  • http://www.myspace.com/10forliberty Mitchell Port

    The government never ceases to amaze me. I’m surprised that they haven’t yet cut off many other businesses that compete with them such as FedEx and UPS. Maybe that’s to come.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    I suppose next they will outlaw barter of any kind? What difference does it make whether I trade a silver coin or my Beanie Babies collection for some dinner? This is more Police State bullshit.

  • Brent

    It’s amusing that the article is spun to make it seem like Liberty Dollars are being used to dupe cashiers or vendors into accepting “fake” money thinking it’s real. It seems to me that Liberty Dollars are a helluva lot more real than U.S. Currency.

  • John Jones

    I like how their press release takes liberties with the wording of Article I, Section 8, Clause 5:

    “However, under the Constitution (Article I, section 8, clause 5), Congress has the exclusive power to coin money of the United States and to regulate its value. The United States Mint is the only entity in the United States with the lawful authority to mint and issue legal tender United States coins.”

    Uh, yeah. The word “exclusive” ain’t in there, folks! Must be that “living” Constitution I keep hearing about! They didn’t used to have a problem with the Liberty Dollar, but now that it’s gaining in popularity, it’s time to shut it down. Expect armed Treasury and Secret Service thugs in Evansville, Indiana, soon.

  • Sandra Kallander

    People have been accepting them without understanding what they are. That’s a problem, sometimes, and they may have complained to the “authorities.”

    It’s the same old problem: punish everybody for the misdeeds of a few.

  • Brian

    Jeff, I actually meant pyramid not ponzi. And they are not worth $14 either by the way. The Liberty Dollar and the way they are sold is a joke. People should use other silver/gold coins that don’t have imaginary values printed on them if they want to use something besides FRN’s.

  • Timothy West

    should have called it the liberty ruble.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    You’re right, Brian. The $10 silver Liberty Dollar I payed $10 for a few months ago is now only worth $12 dollars. Although, last month it was worth about $14.

  • IanC

    The real and true question here is wether or not the Liberty Dollar is an attempt to fraudulently replicate the US Dollar.

    1) There are no coins in U.S. Currency (in circulation) which are denominated at 10.00 or 20.00.

    2) Any child in this nation knows the general shape & form of all denominations of circulatedUS Currency.
    Coins: .01/.05/.10/.25. Paper:1/5/10/20/50/100.

    3) Nowhere on the Liberty Dollar does it indicate it is Legal Tender.

    This accusation SHOULD be a slam-dunk. The question then becomes… is it being USED to dupe the poorly-educated shop-clerks? Is it being advocated so? And can a US Attorney convince a judge of the ‘imminant threat’ to the ill-educated that they must be protected, vis-a-vie the common denominator?

    All other arguments about value et al are irrelevant to this case.

    I for one possess no LD’s. I don’t plan to. But if someone else wants to place their economic power in that form: “Godspeed, my son.”

  • paleolibertarian

    Anyone who does’nt understand what makes LD’s worth more than the spot price is a dumbass. They don’t understand the principles of supply and demand. A product is worth whatever I’m willing to give for it. You can argue that an oz of silver is worth $10 or $12 but the fact is as long as I’m willing to give you $20 worth of goods for it makes it worth $20. If a Babe Ruth baseball card has a book value of $20,000 and someone on E-Bay is willing to give you $50,000 for it, how much is it worth? You might be surprised to know that a U.S quarter is only worth 14 cents in metals, while a penny is worth 1.4 cents. I guess the U.S Mint is running a scam on consumers also.
    I love how Libertarians are Free market this and Free Market that. Yeah they’re free market on everything except exchange mediums. Just another one of the many contradictions of Libertarians that will forever insure their place at the bottom of the political barrel. The 1% club.

  • Brian

    paleolibertarian, you paid a ridiculous premimum to have “Liberty Dollar” and a phony price on your coins (which nobody accepts). So who is the real “dumbass”?

  • http://www.volunteersilver.com Chris

    Brian, unless you are talking about obtaining an insurance policy, what do you mean by premium? Or is this a simple failure of not learning economics 101? I forgive you. They don’t exactly teach this stuff in school.

    I’ve mentioned this to many people and I will mention it to you: people don’t care about the cost of raw materials.

    You don’t care anymore about whether the cost of steel to build SUVs is $5,000 or $6,308. Maybe a convenience store owner paid 25 cents wholesale for Reeses Peanut Butter Cups, then placed a retail price of 60 cents. Who knows.

    Customers are interested in the finished product and the benefits of the finished product. So your claims are full of dead weight.

  • Matt C.

    “I love how Libertarians are Free market this and Free Market that. Yeah they’re free market on everything except exchange mediums.”

    Perhaps you could elaborate how libertarians aren’t for free markets on exchange mediums?

  • Devious David

    Isn’t it funny that someone would “mistakenly” accept it, thinking it was “real” money and then COMPLAIN?

    “Oh NO, sir! You gave me something valuable instead of that paper article of debt! I want the debt, not the wealth!”

    What seems like a clear slam dunk acquital will be anything but. Despite the fact that it had previously been vetted by the folks that are now declaring it illegal. Isn’t it amusing that the Treasury now makes laws at their own caprice? “We told you last week that it was ok and legal, but today we say it’s illegal.” You might as well kiss the Liberty Dollar goodbye, because it’s obviously too big a threat. The judge will obstruct the defense from even batting an eyelash or clearing their throat. Watch.

  • http://www.deived.com Deived

    Wow. Just the other day (Wed), I was talking to one of my teachers about the Liberty Dollar. He said it sounds illegal and will probably be shut down. I told him that they were already told that it is legal so long as it doesnt say “Legal Tender”. He didnt buy it. I was going to pull up some info when I checked HoT… boooooooo

    BOOOOO government!

    Can I still buy some?

  • ianbernard
  • John Jones

    Yes, a 1 oz. Liberty has a face value of $20. Silver is at about $10.75/oz. “A scam, a scam!” cry the libertarians that missed Economics 101. Do you guys pay 5 cents for a loaf of bread, because that’s how much wheat is in there? Duh. They’re running a for-profit business, folks; gotta pay the office folks, etc. How much is that $20 piece of paper Federal Reserve Note worth in materials? Doesn’t look like $20 worth of paper to me! DD is right, both the Secret Service and Fed have previously said “no problem” regarding the Liberty Dollar. It’s gaining in popularity, so now they see a threat to their funny-money hegemony, especially given the goal of NORFED, to repeal the Federal Reserve Act and get rid of the IRS.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    I actually have a question about the Liberty Dollar: I have a 1 oz. Liberty with a face value of $10. At the time I bought it, the spot value of silver was ~$6-7. Could the $10 face value be traded for a $20 face? I would assume they should both have the same real value, but if I walked into a store that accepts LDs, would I be able to buy $20 worth of stuff, or $10?

  • Brian

    Chris, look up premium in the dictionary if you don’t understand. You suggest that I didn’t learn Econ. 101, but maybe you didn’t learn English 101.

    Your SUV analogy has nothing to do with this and is a strawman argument. The transformation of raw materials into an SUV offers some benefit over the raw materials. Nobody is contesting the fact that products can have value over that of the raw materials. What is contested is the supposed value of the Liberty Dollar.

    And the fact is that I own many silver rounds from reputable companies. The price above spot that I pay is very small, especially compared to the Liberty Dollar. The Liberty Dollar offers nothing more for the larger price.

    It’s funny how defensive people get about the Liberty Dollar because you realize many of them have a vested interest.

  • Brian

    John Jones, the Liberty Dollar and FRN’s are both ripoffs.

  • Timothy West

    just buy pre 1964 90% silver coins if you want silver backed money. No one will ever have a doubt about those in any manner.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    If I understand Brian correctly (and Brian, correct me if I am wrong), a 1 oz. silver coin can be had for much less over the spot price of silver. Not that the LD is a scam per se, but a ripoff in the sense that cheaper alternatives are available. And that is the free market, afterall.

    But, that there seems to be a market for LDs suggests that there is SOMETHING causing people to believe the value of LDs to be greater than the value of other coins. My guess — a value is stamped on the face, which may be deceptive.

    Understanding currency at this level is not Econ 101. That is like suggesting quantum physics is Physics 101. The basic ideas can be conceptually understood, but the subtleties require a bit more study.

  • Mr Fantastic

    WTF

    TRUST IN GOD?

    WTF

  • ChristianCB

    They should change the dollar value stamped on the coin to the weight of the material used. If the value of sivler compared to the dollar is constantly changing, why would you put a dollar value on a silver coin?

  • http://listen.to/whitenoise Allan Beatty

    I would find this more clear-cut if they stamped on the coin how many grams of silver were in it, instead of suggesting an exchange rate with fiat money. That might improve their legal standing too.

    The premium above the value of the raw metal is for their services in putting it into coin form and their reputation vouching for its authenticity.

  • Brian

    Chris Moore, you understood me correctly.

    As Timothy pointed out, people can purchase pre-1964 quarters and dimes which are 90% silver, sometimes at even less than spot. Also, a place I have ordered pure silver rounds from in the past has them 50 cents over spot right now.

  • Brian

    ChristianCB, I agree that the coins should have the mass instead of a dollar value. This is especially true if one of your reasons for using it is to promote hard currencies as an alternative to fiat (though this is not my reason for owning silver/gold). Having a made-up dollar value on the coin is at best misleading.

  • Chris R

    This argument is kind of silly. Unless you are investing in silver, then the Liberty Dollar is not the way to go.

    The “other” silver rounds that are available are not ment for circulation. That is the difference between them and the Liberty Dollars of NORFED.

    They created their silver rounds to circulate…putting a dollar value on their face because it’s easier for people to understand, (I guess?) and not having to go through the weights and measures route.

    The other rounds available are collector pieces.

  • http://walterindenver.com Walter

    The legal issue, as it seems to me, is not that the initial purchasers of LDs are being ripped off, but that the LDs may be mispresented to retailers. As Christian notes above, they are being represented as dollars and not precious metals valued by weight.

    We already have available private currencies, such as travelers checks. When a retailer is presented with a travelers check he is usually happy to accept it, as he can easily convert it to actual dollars in his bank account. Can LDs be converted as easily? I’m guessing not, although I’ll wait for a correction if I’m wrong.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    So, the “Liberty Dollar” is illegal, hm? Just as I’ve said since I first heard of it…

    The key point to me is that these badly overpriced silver and gold promissory notes are valued in U. S. dollars. It doesn’t matter that the coins and notes bear no resemblance whatever to existing US currency, nor that they are not advertised as legal tender. They purport to be used in exchange for a set value of currency- a currency which the federal government has the power and duty to set, and which state and lesser governments are explicitly forbidden from duplicating, competing with, or meddling with in any way.

    To the government, if it looks like a buck, clinks like a buck, spends like a buck, and claims to be worth a buck, but isn’t made or authorized by the government, it’s a fake buck- funny money- counterfeit.

    And as the article shows, people ARE trying to pass them off as real money- which, if you’ll bother to recall your Libertarian principles, is fraud.

  • Get REal

    Two diffrent issues here people are missing. One is that one bureaucrat claimed it is illegal. No law was passed against it. No one was prosecuted or convicted. It is most likely not illegal. Don’t confuse legal status with the fantasies of one bureaucrat (or even dozens).

    Second, the potential for deception is high. A coin with $10 worth of silver in it has $20 stamped on it. It is very easy for people to assume that the silver content is worth $20. It is used for its silver not for its “collectability” as I don’t think it has any. Since I will probably go over my word limit see the next post for more.

  • Get REal

    Consider three itmes. Food, a Liberty dollar marked $20 and some Fed Reserve notes. You need to give 20 FRNs for the food. You instead go to them with a liberty dollar marked $20. You in fact paid maybe $12 for it (whatever it was below the $20 marked). Your goal is get the same food that would cost you 20 FRNs with a silver coin that cost 12 FRNs. Only if the grocer is unaware of this relationship is he likely to go along. If he knows he’s selling groceries that cost 20FRNs for a coin that cost $12FRNs then it’s fine. If he doesn’t know there is a potential issue of fraud involved. I was given one of these coins and told it had $10 worth of silver in it. In fact it had half that I learned. Marking with a $ value is deceptive.

  • Brian

    Mr. Anonymous supporter of the liberty dollar:
    The reality is that the FRN is worth something as long as the government forces people to need it through regulation (taxation) and legal tender laws.

    The fact that people are ripped off by the government with fiat currency, does not make people being unnecessarly ripped off by the liberty dollar a good thing.

    You liberty dollar nuts are almost as bad as the people that believe that there are secret loopholes where you don’t have to pay taxes or have a drivers license.

  • Brian

    Anonymous wrote:
    “or that there is a margin built in to guarantee we are not in debt?”

    who is we?

  • Timothy West

    anon commenters. Pfffftttt. :/

  • Brian

    You wonder who I am and who I work for? haha

    You’re the one posting as Anonymous and blatantly promoting the liberty dollar.

    Anyways, you already exposed yourself when you said:
    “or that there is a margin built in to guarantee we are not in debt?”
    Saying “We = Users of the Liberty Dollar” does not make sense for that statement, but nice try.

    I can see that you have no absolutely no argument since you have resorted to labeling me as some kind of sucker for government lies or perhaps even part of a grand conspiracy (how ridiculous!) I guess those the company talking points.

    So I will just reiterate that the liberty dollar is a ripoff and recommend that anyone who wants gold/silver coins purchases other ones where you don’t lose half of your money on the purchase.

  • Ray U

    point of info:

    Liberty Dollar silver pieces ARE stamped with their silver content.

    For example, the 2006 $20 piece says “One Ounce 999 Fine Silver”.

    That means a Troy ounce, which is about 31.1 grams.

  • Ray U

    It’s true that if you want to buy silver then there are much less expensive options than NORFED. That’s because NORFED is not in the business of selling silver. The idea is NOT to hold onto the silver, NOT to convert the certificates to the metal, but to SPEND the money, to CIRCULATE it around in exchange for goods and services.

    The Liberty Silver $20 piece has “only” about $11 of silver in it. This 82% “markup” is an alleged “ripoff.”

    But put it in context.

    The U.S. 25-cent piece has only about 5 cents of metal in it (copper and nickel).

    Seen in this light, the U.S. Mint’s 400% “markup” is the ripoff.

    Why use money with only 5% of its face value when you can swap it for money with 55% of its face value?

    In the case of Federal Reserve Notes the markup is even more of a ripoff. What is that thing, like 3 cents of paper and ink, and we’re supposed to keep pretending to call it 100 cents?

  • Brian

    Ray, then they just need to remove the phony price on the coin and charge half as much!

  • Ray U

    > Ray, then they just need to remove the phony price on the coin and charge half as much!

    They, meaning the U.S. Mint? You’re saying the U.S. Mint should stop stamping five cents worth of copper and nickel with a phony 25-cent face value?

  • Ray U

    In answer to the person who still has one of the old Silver Liberties, a whole ounce of silver but only a $10 face value, you should be able to use it as a 20 with merchants who already know and accept the Liberty Dollar. Or find a Liberty Associate who will swap it out for you for one of the current 1-ouncers, with $20 face value, or for $20 in the bills (Liberty Dollar silver certificates).

    As a last resort you would have to pay S&H to send your 1-ounce $10 piece to NORFED and they would send you back a $20 1-ounce piece or $20 in their current $20-base bills, your choice.

  • Ray U

    I wrote:

    > Why use money with only 5% of its face value when you can swap it for money with 55% of its face value?

    Correction, the U.S. quarter has 20% of its face value, not 5%. It is five CENTS worth of copper and nickel stamped with a face value five TIMES higher, so that’s how I mistakenly called it 5% of its face value.

    Why take money with only 20% of its face value (or even much less if you take Federal Reserve Notes instead of U.S. quarters), when you can have money with 55% of its face value instead?

  • Devious David

    From the US Mint:

    What is the 50 State Quarters® Program costing U.S. taxpayers?

    Nothing. In fact, the U.S. Government is making money on the 50 State Quarters Program. The cost to manufacture a quarter is about 5 cents, providing a profit of approximately 20 cents per coin. United States Mint profits go to the general fund of the U.S. Treasury to help fund U.S. Government operations, reduce the need for new or higher taxes, and reduce the Federal Government’s debt. No tax revenues will be used in either the manufacture or the promotion of the state quarters. All costs are funded from the United States Mint’s earned revenue.

  • Ray U

    Brian, the thing that makes the Silver Liberty’s $20 face value “imaginary” to you, is the fact that the U.S. Govt. refuses to define the dollar as a certain amount of silver anymore. That refusal makes ALL face values imaginary, on ALL things with the word Dollar on them.

    Observe the U.S. Mint Silver Eagle, a whole ounce of fine silver with a mere ONE Dollar face value. Take that thing to a bank and get only ONE Federal Reserve Note in exchange – talk about a ripoff! Talk about an imaginary face value on a piece of silver!

    Silver has intrinsic value, but people are accustomed to dealing in “dollars,” so a dollar value SUGGESTION is stamped onto the face. The Liberty Dollar silver pieces, and certificates, are NEGOTIABLE. No merchant has to take them at face value, nor accept them at all.

  • Graham

    “Just another one of the many contradictions of Libertarians that will forever insure their place at the bottom of the political barrel. The 1% club. ”

    Actually this issue itself and supporting the LD are fringe issues probably seen as “nutty” ( like refusing to use Driver’s Licenses and not filing taxes) that will probably guarantee the sub 1%.

    Not to mention the Amway-sounding ( no that is not a good thing) element to it.

  • Ray U

    Brian, can you suggest a better way for NORFED to be trying to achieve its goal of replacing the U.S. Dollar with a silver-based system, other than by stamping a suggested Dollar amount of face value onto the NORFED silver pieces?

    If all my coin says is that’s an ounce of silver, what merchant would take it? Merchandise prices get quoted in dollars, not in ounces of silver. There has to be some suggested Dollar face value on it, as long as prices are in dollars. And the face value has to be more than the current intrinsic value, or else it won’t circulate, it’ll get hoarded and melted down.

    So, given NORFED’s explicit goal of replacing the dominant currency with a silver-based currency, I don’t think there’s any other good way for them to do it than to stamp dollar values onto their money, and to do so at higher than spot price. That is, unless merchandise prices themselves suddenly start appearing as numbers of ounces of silver instead of numbers of dollars.

  • IanC

    Another fallacy too many people here are making.

    There are SEVERAL nations in the world which use the dollar as their unitary currency. Most of these have exchange rates with the US.

    Would it be considered fraud by the nation of New Zealand for someone with $5.00 Kiwi dollars (NZD) to try and buy a pack of gum and ask for change back? (Thus actually GAINING in monetary currency at today’s exchange rates…)

    The PERSON is committing fraud, certainly. But New Zealand?

    The answer to THAT question is the answer to THIS question.

  • jcn50

    @Ray-U, Ray-U said:
    Brian, can you suggest a better way for NORFED to be trying to achieve its goal of replacing the U.S. Dollar with a silver-based system, other than by stamping a suggested Dollar amount of face value onto the NORFED silver pieces?

    Off course there are alternatives, but NORFED will simply die (no more profits) if people were, for example this product:
    [SPAM LINK DELETED]

    The truth about NORFED is that they want to absorb the profits made by the US Mint or the FED… That’s all! Do you really think NORFED wants to help you?? Hahaha…..

  • Anonymous

    Hmmmm, $27.95 for an ounce of minted silver with no face value therefore I cannot easily spend it.

    OR

    $16.91 for an ounce of minted silver with a $20 face value which is easily spendable

    Sounds like the Liberty Dollar is a much better deal to me jcn50. What makes you think people will pay a 300% premium for a Silver Eagle? Only collectors imo.

  • jcn50

    @Ray-U, Ray-U said:
    Brian, can you suggest a better way for NORFED to be trying to achieve its goal of replacing the U.S. Dollar with a silver-based system, other than by stamping a suggested Dollar amount of face value onto the NORFED silver pieces?

    Of course there are alternatives, but NORFED will simply die (no more profits) if people were, for example, buy this product:
    [SPAM LINK DELETED]

    The truth about NORFED is that they want to absorb the profits made by the US Mint or the FED”¦ That’s all! Do you really think NORFED wants to help you?? Hahaha…

  • Ray U

    jcn50, seriously, how do you suggest the goal of getting back to a silver-based currency be done? Surely not by using a whole ounce of silver for a mere ONE-dollar coin. That’s what the US Mint’s American Eagle, which you pointed us to, is. If you seriously think that thing would CIRCULATE with THAT face value, then prove it right now by exchanging some to me for one greenback each!

  • Anonymous

    Ray U is right! OMG $1 face value?! LOL
    my bad …

    no one beats the government at finding ways to waste money.

  • Devious David

    If only it were about “wasting” money!

  • Clark W

    LD is a CURRENCY, backed by silver. Currencies have printed DENOMINATIONS. The 1 oz Liberty Silver affirms its value (1 oz. silver) and this is the backing to its $20 denomination. $20 is the denomination, not the Dollar Value of the piece. This is in contrast to FRNs, which NEVER affirm the value backing the denomination. LD must have denominations to function as living, circulating currency. But please don’t confuse denomination from its backing value, and please never forget that FRNs are created by the FED out of thin air.

  • Clark W

    As a CIRCULATING CURRENCY, LDs are intended to facilitate commerce and trade, and are placed in the economy without creating a debt.

    FRNs in contrast, are placed into circulation by being borrowed from the FED by the U.S. federal govt, creating a debt that is secured by collateral. That collateral is Federal Income Tax.

    FRNs, therefore, appear to be intended to create debt instruments yielding profits to a private, centralized bank, The Federal Reserve Bank. The FED has never been audited by the IRS and its complete list of owners is still secret to this day.

    For more info on the erosive dangers of the FED, please see film documentaries such as THE MONEY MASTERS, and AMERICA: FROM FREEDOM TO FASCISM.

  • Clark W

    What does it accomplish to back currency with silver?

    A previous commentator asked how to exchange an outdated 1 oz. Liberty Silver $10 denomination, to a current 1 oz. $20 denomination. This is an indication of the purpose of silver backed currency: It offers users some protection from loss of buying power due to inflation.

    In contrast, FRNs are highly subject to the loss of buying power due to inflation.

    (This is one reason the U.S. Constitution requires that money created by the govt be backed by silver or gold. The power of creating money, in fact is a power of Congress. Having a private central bank is widely seen as inherently unconstitutional. Although fiat currency, at least the Civil War era “Lincoln Greenbacks” were legal tender created by Congress and were debt free instruments.)

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Two things are worth noting here.

    First, after the Roman Empire abandoned Britain, silver and gold coins gradually became worthless- merchants wouldn’t accept the metal for exchange. The society devolved to a barter system, where it remained through the Saxon conquest and up to King Alfred the Great. “Precious” metals are not necessarily a universal means of exchange.

    Second, in the past five years the price of gold has gone from $250 per ounce to $750 per ounce and then back -down- again to about $600-$650 per ounce. Silver has fluctuated from $3.50 to $15 to its current rate of about $11 per ounce. During the same period the FRN’s effective buying power declined no more than 15%- probably much less.

    Tying a currency to a commodity does not guarantee its stability- in fact it makes the currency as stable, or unstable, as the commodity. The hyperinflation Spain suffered during its imperial period should be proof of that.

  • Clark W

    Thanks to Kris for making good points.

    Again, backing money with silver provides some protection, not total protection, from inflation. FRNs, in contrast, are created out of thin air by a possibly unconstitutional central private bank, and violating the Constitutional requirement of creating money backed by gold or silver.

    In U.S. history, debt free silver based money has been very successful, and correlate with prosperous and stable economic periods (see MONEY MASTERS, free at video.google.com).

    Please remember, FRNs are BANK NOTES, not government issued money instruments; they are unbacked, debt encumbered interest bearing instruments from a private, central bank, ie., a corporation serving its owners, making them wealthy. Please remember, the FED is a PRIVATE BANK COPORATION. Forgive me for repeating these important points.

    Please consider these points when choosing to use, to spend, to circulate Liberty Dollars.

  • Devious David

    You have to get over silver and gold priced in FRNs. The metals certainly have some volatility. The currency, the Liberty Dollar doesn’t fluctuate as much. The system is currently on a $20.00 silver base. I have a LD that dates back to the $10.00 silver base. Thus, there were only two distinct “valuations”, not every day, mark-to-market.

    With honest weights and measures, this is less of a problem anyway because you know how much of the metal you are getting.

    FRNs are a sham. I see the price fluctuations of the metals as being price fluctuations in the dollar. If you look at it that way, then you come to understand that only gold and silver provide lasting, stable value.

    That said, no money is perfect. But the FRN/fiat currency meets fewer of the criteria for soundness than do gold/silver. Meanwhile gold/silver meet all the criteria.

  • Devious David

    Clark W, how’s Rusty?

  • jcn50

    @ Ray-U & Anonymous:

    My point wasn’t to find “the good deal” for your pocket, but to search a legal bullet-proof way to do what you are doing with LibertyDollars using the legal US Mint’s coins!! As far as I know the topic is “Feds Claim Liberty Dollar Usage is Illegal”.

    Let’s go back to the discussion and comparison:
    - the Liberty Dollar is using a 1 oz. silver medium
    - the US Mint coin I gave a link to is also 1 oz. silver

    Examining:
    - the intrinsic values: both are the same!!
    - the face value: the Liberty Dollar is currently exchanged at a value of US$20, and the US Mint coin at a face value of US$1, BUT you can’t buy this US Mint coin for US$1!

    MY idea:
    - if the whole community of the LibertyDollar users AGREE to exchange the US Mint coins at a face value of US$30, everyone remains legal by using US Mint’s coins, achieving the same goal. It’s the use of the system against the system (crafty!).

    The value of money is what people agrees upon (without NORFED).

  • jcn50

    Everyone is stating here “but you’re exchanging Federal Reserve Notes, which intrasic value is different from the face value”! What do you think you are doing with Liberty Dollars?… Why wouldn’t do it with US Mint’s coins???!!

    MY idea will have the following consequences:
    - NORFED existence is worthless (no more profits for them!).
    - so the FED existence: worthless (if everyone is using silver-backed coins, etc).
    - the US Mint’s coins are completely legal (no more people in custody, no more attorney, no more legal challenge).
    - no more NORFED assiociates (maybe this one is hurting a lot of people here)?
    - goals are achieved (silver backed currency, inflation-proof, no more use of Federal Reserve Notes).
    - if you don’t like to give YOUR money to the FED, why give your money to NORFED?..

    Hahaha….

    I guess I answered to your initial question, Ray-U.

  • jcn50

    Ray-U said:
    {quote}
    If you seriously think that this thing would CIRCULATE with THAT face value, then prove it right now by exchanging some to me for one greenback each!
    {end of quote}

    Market price of this coin is US$27.95. You can also call the “market price” as the “real face value”. Thus, you can pay me with this coin anything up to US$30 is acceptable for me.

    Arguments are:
    - the US Mint is currently selling this coin at US$27.95 (there is no way I can exchange it for US$1)!
    - the intrinsic value of the coin is US$16.91 (1 oz. of silver).
    - I can resell this coin anytime to any coins’ store or collector (using the Certificate of Authenticity signed by the Acting Director of the United States Mint).

    Now do the test~ go to a coin dealer with:
    - the US Mint coin I gave the link to;
    - the Liberty Dollar with the US$20 face value.
    Ask the dealer to buy one of them. Which one do you think he will pick-up?..

    Hahaha… Ask him/her why!

  • jcn50

    Oh, I forgot:

    - counterfeit the LibertyDollar: and you won’t go to the court.
    - now try with the US Mint’s coins ;)….

    Enjoy~

  • jcn50
  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    If the dollar amount is not a suggested rate of exchange from silver to FRN, but instead a denomination completely separate from FRN, then it would be wise to NOT use the US dollar symbol. A $20.00 LD could just as easily be a &3.00 (which is backed by 1 oz. silver) if they are simply defining a denomination.

    And if that is the case, then why not just use 1 oz. silver as the denomination?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Wait… Now it’s illegal to be a mercantilist idiot???

  • Nicholas Sarwark

    Brian:
    You liberty dollar nuts are almost as bad as the people that believe that there are secret loopholes where you don’t have to pay taxes or have a drivers license.

    Fixed your post.

  • Rich

    Don’t forget Gresham’s law and how “bad money” chases out “good money” from usage and circulation. If a $20 Liberty Dollar silver coin had $20 dollars of silver in it, it would *not* be used as a form of currency. The purpose of Liberty Dollars is *not* for holding/hoarding them at home as some hedge against inflation. The purpose of the Liberty Dollar is serve as a real currency, in competition to the FRNs.

    Anyone want to use your Silver coins regularly in the store? I did not think so. Especially since my Morgans have a face value of only $1.

    Also it is impractical to fix the Liberty Dollar to the spot price of silver and gold. It would be far too confusing to use as currency. (Last May the Liberty Dollar was worth $15, now it’s worth $11.20…) Everyone knows silver can increase or decrease in value by 10% or more in one day or one week. That would not work at all.

  • Rich Johnson

    Don’t forget Gresham’s law and how “bad money” chases out “good money” from usage and circulation. If a $20 Liberty Dollar silver coin had $20 dollars of silver in it, it would not be used as a form of currency. The purpose of Liberty Dollars is not for holding/hoarding them at home as some hedge against inflation. The purpose of the Liberty Dollar is serve as a real currency, in competition to the FRNs.

    Anyone want to use your Silver coins regularly in the store? I did not think so. Especially since my Morgans have a face value of only $1.

    Also it is impractical to fix the Liberty Dollar to the spot price of silver and gold. It would be far too confusing to use as currency. (Last May the Liberty Dollar was worth $15, now it’s worth $11.20.) Everyone knows silver can increase or decrease in value by 10% or more in one day or one week.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    “Also it is impractical to fix the Liberty Dollar to the spot price of silver and gold.”

    If it’s not fixed to something, then it’s just fiat. The “value” of the LD will change with the spot price because it is backed by silver. It is by design fixed to the spot price of silver.

    Why is it more impractical to simply print “1 oz. silver” on the front than some ficticious number that changes from year to year or even from month to month? (I have a LD coin that says $10 on the front. Now the same coins say $20. If the spot price went to $40 FRN tomorrow, then LDs would come out with a face value of $50. If the spot dropped to $5 FRN tomorrow, then anybody who accepted your $20 LD at face thinking it was worth $20 FRN would be getting screwed.)

  • Clark W

    I hope this helps clarify our language a little.

    My Webster’s Dictionary defines “fiat money” as “paper currency made legal tender by law or fiat, although not backed by gold or silver and not necessarily redeemable in coin.”

    By this definition, FRNs appear to be and should rightfully be regarded as fiat money.

    Liberty Dollars, in contrast, are BACKED by silver, as I have discussed in Comments 58-60 and 62 above. The LD Silver Certificates are literally warehouse receipts and ARE redeemable. I have also clarified, I hope, the issues of DENOMINATIONS and the silver’s value BACKING (not equaling) the denominations.

    Please remember, LDs are intended to be a living, circulating currency. LDs are clearly and obviously not a raw silver investment. LDs are a CIRCULATING CURRENCY based on and backed by silver.

    In contrast, FRNs are created by the FED out of thin air, as I have discussed earlier. Please forgive my repeating these points.

  • Nathan

    Norfed’s are a rip off scam. I’ve had some and the advice you are given is to just pass it out. To not explain it. Let people take it. Most that do think it’s worth the value stamped on it. They make the same mistake with FRNs. The thing is that everyone, even NORFED, takes FRNs. While most people when they no the real value of silver will not touch them. It is a scam so that it’s members can make a profit spreading there coins into the population and earn profit. The sad thing is that many of them have drank the Koolaid and thing they are doing good. All they really do is rip off some poor ignorant clerk.

    FRNs are a crock and they loose value over time but are widely used. NORFEDs are not worth the amount printed on them either and yet this is somehow more HONEST money.

    The Federal Reserve is a crime against our children. One they will have to pay for. But this is NOT the proper or honest answer.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    You have not addressed any of my questions.

  • Clark W

    Chris (70) suggests the &3 denomination for 1 oz Liberty Silver.

    The intention of LDs is to function easily as currency today. LDs are are intentionally produced in denominations equal to FRN denominations, making them easily understood in cash units requiring no conversion factor to FRNs, the cash system people already use and understand. The $ sign indicates they are meant to be thought of as replacing or used voluntarily like dollars for buying and selling…easily.

    L$ might be a possible compromise for the dollar symbol.

  • Clark W

    Nathan (77) makes good points, especially in acknowledging the evils of the FED. Please state how to address the FED in a better way.

    Spending LDs is gratifying for me in large part because it expresses my opposition to the FED. This is the stated purpose and primary goal of NORFED. That NORFED and Liberty Associates make money (FRN profit) is true, but seems irrelevant.

    The FED, in contrast, is making TONS of profit, by transferring Income Tax receipts to the FED, serving the FED’s owners, as I have observed previously (59, 62).

    Again, the value/price of the silver is immaterial, in contrast to the FRN, backed by nothing, made out of thin air by the FED. That is fiat money legal tender.

  • Clark W

    On the legality issue, counterfeit money is forged money trying to pass off as U.S. legal tender, forgery of existing FRN instruments, like a U.S. $20 bill, for example.

    You may legally print U.S. Legal Tender $7 bills and spend them, because there are no real $7 bill FRNs in existence, hence, $7 are not forgeries of an existing FRN, even if the words Legal Tender are on the note. Somebody help me if I’m wrong.

    Liberty Silver pieces are similar to U.S. coins, but do not mimic or attempt to represent any U.S. mint or FRN; same is true for Silver Certificates, they do not attempt to be forgeries of true FRNs.

    I believe on this basis LDs appear legal. If the legal system performs properly, LDs should be held up in court as legal. However, the courts often have elements of corruption, and the power of the FED and corporations is great.

  • Ray U

    Try to pass a counterfeit a silver certificate and not go to court, jcn? Why not? Isn’t obtaining property by false pretenses a crime anymore?

  • Clark W

    Anybody can become a Liberty Associate (LA) and purchase LDs at a discount. In contrast, not anybody can become an owner of the FED, and create money at an infinite discount, by creating money out of thin air.

    Please understand, dear friends, the real “rip-off” is the FED, and the real question is What are we willing to do about it as patriotic American citizens? Criticize and condemn, or take an edgy action that is educating, creating questioning minds, and quite possibly borderline, if justified, civil disobedience?

  • Clark W

    Anybody accepting a LD may exchange it at face value for FRNs, either through NORFED, or any LA. That’s pretty rock solid “rip-off” protection, don’t you think?

    The phone number and website are on the Liberty Silvers and the Silver Certificates.

    Silver Certificates may be redeemed for Liberty Silvers, and both may be exchanged for FRNs, all on demand. Please remember, FRNs can not be redeemed for silver at all, in contrast.

  • Clark W

    Nathan (77) said Most people when they know the real value of the silver will not touch them.

    Patently not true.

    Many people do and are accepting them, as many people truly do understand the fragility of fiat money, and what can happan when fiat money collapses. I find this especially true of persons from foreign countries, where they have personal experience with collapsed fiat legal tenders. These folks are happy and eager to accept LDs, including many business owners.

  • Clark W

    Nathan (77) says All they do is rip off some ignorant clerk.

    How is the CLERK getting ripped off?

    The clerk probably will not be personally liable for the LDs the clerk accepted, right?

    The LDs may be exchanged ON DEMAND for FRNs, right?

    Please remember, its not about the value of the silver backing the denomination. Its about using a LEGAL, voluntary currency with easy to use denominations. The backing is THE SILVER ITSELF, not its FRN market value! In contrast, FRNs have NO backing because they are MADE OUT OF THIN AIR. Forgive me for repeating some points.

  • Ray U

    jcn writes:

    > As far as I know the topic is “Feds Claim Liberty Dollar Usage is Illegal”.

    Using Silver Liberty MEDALLIONS, AS CURRENCY, is against 18USC486. But using them as barter isn’t. “I offer you one of these privately minted 1-ounce Liberty Dollar medallions for every $20 worth of goods that I want from your store.”

    Using the PAPER LD (Silver Certificates) as currency is unqualifiedly LEGAL. When we offer them in payment we can call them Real American Money, Silver-Based Currency, things like that.

    > if the whole community of the LibertyDollar users AGREE to exchange the US Mint coins at a face value of US$30

    The entire public is potentially the whole community of LD users. We have enough explaining to do already. Under your idea we’d have to get strangers to agree to call a $1 coin a piece of $30 money. I prefer my barter angle, using Silver Liberties as things I I can get for $17 and trade for $20 of goods.

  • Ray U

    Clark, you are mistaken that NORFED will convert your LDs back into FRNs. Nor is any Liberty Associate bound to do so. The explicit goal is to replace fiat currency with real money — not to reverse the exchange.

    One guy I GAVE a paper LD to, asked if he could have a FRN instead. Instead of slapping him I told him if he finds a new merchant to take paper LDs at face value, I’ll give the guy two more LDs. :)

  • Ray U

    jcn writes:

    > [G]o to a coin dealer with:
    > – the US Mint coin I gave the link to;
    > – the Liberty Dollar with the US$20 face value.
    > Ask the dealer to buy one of them. Which one do you think he will pick-up?

    You mean which one will he pay more for? The one that cost you more to get in the first place. The one that is meant for collectors. The U.S. Mint’s American Eagle 1-oz coin with a stupid $1 face value.

    > Ask him/her why!

    Because it’s more resellable. So what? We Associates are not in the silver market! Get that through your head! We are just using silver to back an alternate currency.

    Now I want you to go to that coin shop owner and tell him you’ll pay his 40 dollar asking price for one of his pretty 1-oz silver $1 U.S. Eagles in good condition. Put 40 FRNs in one pile and put 40 paper LDs in another pile and put two 2006 Silver Libertys in a third pile, and tell him to take his pick of any one pile for payment. I bet he doesn’t pick the FRNs.

  • Clark W

    My mistake, I acknowledge and apologize. Ray U (88) is correct.

    However, I personally exchange back any LDs I have spent whenever the person who accepted them from me wants FRNs instead.

    Liberty Merchants (LM) may also exchange LDs for FRNs through their RCO (Regional Currancy Officer) when needed, say to make payroll or buy supplies and inventory or other acts of business that require FRNs.

    Such LMs have a contractual agreement with their RCO.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    What do I do with my gold or my silver? The only thing dumber than fiat money is money backed by fantasy medals that have little/no productive capacity. You want to base an economy on jewelry and ornaments? The agrarian revolutionaries had a much better idea, making notes backe by grain. But anyone with any economic understanding whatsoever knows that backing a currency by any single commodity stilfes economic growth and limits the potenial economy to the total “value” of the backing medal. I once thought that socialists were just libertarians who don’t understand ecomomics.. What are libertarians who don’t understand econmomics? Right-wing wackos. Join the CP with your gold and silver BS.

  • Ray U

    jcn writes:
    > Everyone is stating “but you’re exchanging Federal >Reserve Notes, which intrasic value is different from face value”!

    Paper HAS NO intrinsic value, compared to Ag.

    > What do you think you are doing with Liberty Dollars?

    Reintroducing America to intrinsic value!

    > Why wouldn’t do it with US Mint’s coins?

    Face val. must be > intrinsic val., to circulate. The US$1 Eagle w/$11 of Ag in it doesn’t circulate. The US25-cent pc. w/only 5c of Cu+Ni in it does circulate. Two unreasonable ratios at opposite ends of spectrum. In btwn is the reasonable LD ratio: $20 instrument redeemable for 1oz Ag.

    >MY idea will have the following consequences:
    >- so the FED existence: worthless (if everyone is using silver-backed coins, etc).

    Paper money (Ag certificates) is still needed. It’s so much easier to carry around.

    >- if you don’t like to give YOUR money to the FED, why give your money to NORFED.

    It’s not giving money to NF, it’s using NF’s service to CONVERT money.

  • deco

    Just a comment. Rather than calling it the FED, shouldn’t we call it the P-FED? I think the FED is quite misleading.
    And misleading seems to be a big issue regarding ALD.

    Private-Federal (Non)Reserve Bank sounds more accrat, I think. Maybe, we should demand the name change, no?

  • jcn50

    Many of these comments seems to switch to:
    - “I’m against the LD because~~~~”
    - “I’m for the LD because~~~~” (I can make money — Liberty Associate).

    I really thought this topic was about examining the legality of the LD…it became a list of truth & believes, advocators and against…

    Good day.

  • deco

    Oops, couldn’t spell accurate.

    Anyway, I think these names are more accurate:

    The P-FED

    P-FRN

    I think the FED and FRN are too misleading. It’s as if they are trying to deceive us, naah.

  • Ray U

    Anarchist, you don’t know what you can do with gold & silver? You must not have any. :-)

    They make excellent MONEY, most of all, because they are scarce, homogeneous, malleable, easily divisible and have many end uses. Do you have enough MONEY? I don’t!

    The myriad end-uses include applications in mirrors, batteries, cloud-seeding, soldering, photography, ceramics, organic chemistry, electron microscopy, wiring, embroidery, computers, astronautics, medicine, aeronautics, corrosion control, jewelry, dentistry and industrial production. As the LD website puts it, “You may not use silver, but there’s a worldwide market for it!”

  • Ray Est.

    I have been taking Liberty Dollars for over 4 years. I take all sorts of currencies as well. I try to limit my use of the green Fed Notes as much as possible, but you have to use them to some degree. But since the Federal Reserve money is not real money per law, and is a Ponzi Scheme, and whoever is left holding the green paper trash when the music stops… LOSES their ass, I simply don’t want to hold onto FRN’s for long. So when I get green FRN’s in my business I try to convert it to real money, gold and silver, as fast as I can. It is crystal clear the Liberty Dollars are 100% legal and that they are now impinging on the Fed scam. Otherwise why would they have attacked the Liberty Dollar with a slanderous, patently false, artfully worded “warning”, not from any Judiciary, but the US Mint ! Since when does the US Mint and DOJ make “decisions”, they don’t only courts do. Because they know that the law is on the Liberty Dollar’s side. I hope Liberty Dollar wins millions in the lawsuit

  • jcn50

    Let’s try to re-center the topic once again.

    Ray-U said:
    {quote}
    Try to pass a counterfeit a silver certificate and not go to court, jcn? Why not? Isn’t obtaining property by false pretenses a crime anymore?
    {end of quote}

    I take a piece of metal, I print “Liberty Dollar” and “$1000″ on it: I won’t go to the court.
    Now how about this: I take another piece of metal, I print “US dollar” and “$1000″ too. What do you think will happen to me?…

    That’s why it’s better to use US Mint coins: they are, at least, covered and backed by gov laws & “protection” (and you won’t be outlaw, like stated by Ian Bernard).

    It my opinion, the ideological goals of an alternative currency can be achieved legally, with US Mint’s coins (right now!). BUT some people wouldn’t be able to make profits on it.

  • deco

    Hello, Rich Johnson

    JFYI. I spend Silver Eagles. Yes, I buy them for about $12 each and spend as $1. Why? Because I think the liberty of this country is in serious danger and I think that most of the problems that we have today are created by greed and generosity is the only way we can solve these problems, as far as I can see.

    I have noticed that people who are in gold and silver are very liberty conscious, therefore, I’m trying to spread as much silver as I can to as many people as possible. In fact, often I just give out these Silver Eagles for free.

  • jcn50

    @deco: at least what you are doing is legal… ;-)

  • Ray U

    jcn writes:
    > I take a piece of metal, I print “Liberty Dollar” and “$1000″ on it: I won’t go to the court.

    How did you become exempt from 18USC486, which says metal shall not be used as currency except in statutorily authorized forms? Or if you’re not talking about trying to SPEND it, who cares? No one needs “protection” from counterfeiters who don’t victimize anyone.

    > Now how about this: I take another piece of metal, I print “US dollar” and “$1000″ too. What do you think will happen to me?”¦

    18USC486. I think 18USC486 will happen to you in both cases.

    > the ideological goals of an alternative currency can be achieved legally, with US Mint’s coins

    I can’t believe you’re seriously suggesting we try to get
    people to PRETEND the U.S. Eagle says $30 when it only says $1. Coins with face values less than their intrinsic values DON’T CIRCULATE. They get hoarded, sold, melted.

    Repeal 18USC486 and stop hassling us for honestly offering LD medallions as alternative, voluntary coins

  • Ray U

    > Why is it more impractical to simply print “1 oz. silver” on the front

    BECAUSE MERCHANTS DON’T QUOTE THEIR PRICES IN SILVER OUNCES. BECAUSE MERCHANTS QUOTE THEIR PRICES IN DOLLARS. BECAUSE FOLKS ARE WILLING TO TAKE FACE VALUE AS APPROXIMATELY CORRECT IF THEY SEE IT OFFERED REPEATEDLY IN ACTUAL CIRCULATION.

    > I have a LD coin that says $10 on the front. Now the same coins say $20.

    Lucky you. You can get $20 in NORFED notes for that medallion you pd $10 for

    > If the spot price went to $40 FRN tomorrow, then LDs would come out with a face value of $50.

    And you could get $50 in LD silver certificates for the medallion you paid only $10 for! No, actually, a one-day spike wouldn’t cause a base change. It would be based on a month-long, sustained rise in the spot price.

    > If the spot dropped to $5 FRN tomorrow, then anybody who accepted your $20 LD at face thinking it was worth $20 FRN would be getting screwed.)

    One-day price spikes do not change long-term economic trends.

  • Clark W

    Ray U (100-101) makes very good points. His answers are correct, factual, and logical.

  • jcn50

    > 18USC486. I think 18USC486 will happen to you in both cases.

    I was meaning without spending it. And I don’t know if you noticed but you just recogized that “using the LD as a currency” is illegal :-D.

    >I can’t believe you’re seriously suggesting we try to get
    >people to PRETEND the U.S. Eagle says $30 when it only
    >says $1. Coins with face values less than their intrinsic >values DON’T CIRCULATE.

    Gresham’s law applies to the Liberty Dollar too, Sir~. And I am serious. Again, US Eagle are legal.

  • Clark W

    It seems that uttering the Liberty Silvers (medallions) is legal and not in violation of US Code Title 18 Section 486. “Coins” are defined in part as being ISSUED BY GOVERNMENT. Liberty Silver medallions have libertydollar.org printed on them, indicating that they are privately minted rather than government issued, making them NOT coins, as defined legally. Hence Code 18-486 does not apply to Liberty Silvers because they are NOT legally coins at all. They are silver “pieces,” perhaps medallions or tokens of some kind, or silver “rounds,” perhaps.

    Liberty Silver rounds may be offered as payment but not represented as U.S. currency or legal tender. “Will you accept payment in silver?”

    This same U.S. Code does not ban uttering paper LDs, the Silver Certificates. Certificates are free and clear legal.

  • jcn50

    > Coins” are defined in part as being ISSUED BY GOVERNMENT.

    US Code Title 18 Section 485:
    Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
    Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph””
    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

  • jcn50

    You can read it again & again:

    “in actual use and circulation as money within the United States”

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Ray, I ask questions so that I may learn. I have nothing against the LD, in fact I have a few. So please do not yell at me.

    “BECAUSE MERCHANTS DON’T QUOTE THEIR PRICES IN SILVER OUNCES.”

    I’m aware of this, but it doesn’t address the question. Merchants quote their prices in US dollars. If the entire point is to eliminate the FED and the US dollar, then why tie the value of the LD to the US dollar?

    Why not define a denomination, say &10 = 1 oz. silver, and be done? When silver goes up, prices (in LDs) go down.

    “No, actually, a one-day spike wouldn’t cause a base change.”

    I figured that, but the price of silver could jump tomorrow and stay that way for months. Then NORFED would change their base to reflect the “value” of FRN. If the idea is to get rid of FRN, then why continually tie the face value of LDs to FRN?

  • jcn50

    If the use of the Libety Dollar coins are not use as a circulating money, then what?

    Whoever falsely makes [...] any coin [...] of a denomination higher than 5 cents [...] stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, [...] in actual use and circulation as money within the United States [...] Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both~~

    Am I wrong here or I don’t understand English anymore?..

    [that's the debate I was waiting for: the legal part!]

  • jcn50

    Hello Chris,

    I guess NORFED is not pegging the LD to the US$, but gives an easily exchange rate with the US$ by changing their denomination each time their coins’ values change. No other currency change their curreny denomination that fast (although they do over a long time period).

  • Kitanis

    I laugh at the whole thing.

    LD are treated as currency if a retailer accepts it for goods and services.. the government dose not like that because they do not get a tax cut in any of it.

    But I can remember when I returned from military duty in Korea.. having multiple 1000 won notes that were at the time worth about $1.49 a copy in US currency. I went out on a date and had a bill for $78 at a very fine restruant. I as a joke threw a 1000 won note to the waiter and said “will that do?”

    the waiter said yes and tried to give me change for $1000. I produced a $100 dollar bill and explained that I was joking and wanted to pay in American money.. but the waiter insisted on keeping the won note and handing me $922 in change. I kepted trying to explain to him that I would Give him the 1000 won note aand pay in American script but he insisted.. I had to talk to the manager to stop the problem.. but it took time.

    Money is worth what someone values it as.

  • Clark W

    jcn50 (108) has good questions BUT answered previously in 104. Again, Liberty Silvers not coins by the words of the law itself, therefore not in violation of the law, ie., LEGAL.

  • jcn50

    Kitanis said:

    >Money is worth what someone values it as.

    That’s why using American Eagles issued by the US Mint is 100% bullet-proof legal! ;-) Thanks Kitanis.

    I have a question for the Liberty Associate here: about the Silver Certificates. What’s written on it?.. I can’t see it clearly on the picture found on the LD website. Thanks in advance.

  • jcn50

    I also want the phone number shown on the Silver certificate, thanks!

  • jcn50

    I called LD, here is the transcript of the conversation:

    Me: I have a $1 Silver paper Certificate with me, I would like to redeem it to silver.
    Operator: You can’t redeem it to silver, but does it have a “$20 value base” written on it?
    Me: Yes, on the left bottom side.
    Op.: Ok, in that case it will mean that you give us this $1 certificate plus US$19 Federal Reserve Notes, and we will give you one $20 Silver Liberty.
    Me: Oh ok, and how much silver a Silver Liberty has?
    Op: 1 ounce.
    Me: OK, thank you for the information, bye.

    Some calculus:
    Silver spot price@US$11
    -$1 Silver Certificate = 1/10 oz. of silver = US$1.10 intrinsic value
    +US$19
    = 1 ounce of silver@US$20.10!

    — Examining this in a hypothetical situation —
    Silver spot price at US$990/ounce (LD base x 50 = @US$1000).
    -$1 Silver Certificate, intrinsic value = US$99.
    How much do you think the LibertyDollar company will ask me to have a Silver Liberty coin?…

    Haha! The answer is US$950!!!!

  • Ray Ubinger

    >> I think 18USC486 will happen to you in both cases.

    > I was meaning without spending it.

    No one needs protection from counterfeiters who don’t try to spend their product. People PASSING fake LDs are prosecutable for obtaining property by false pretense.

    > And I don’t know if you noticed but you just recogized that “using the LD as a currency” is illegal

    I recognized that using LD MEDALLIONS as currency violates 18USC486. But 18USC486 itself violates the Constitution, so violating 18USC486 is not illegal. Further, PAPER LDs don’t even violate 18USC486. NO ONE in govt has claimed LD PAPER money is illegal.

    >> I can’t believe you’re seriously suggesting we try to get
    people to PRETEND the U.S. Eagle says $30 when it only
    says $1.

    > I am serious.

    You are silly. Why would you give me $29 in change on a pack of gum that I pay for with an 1-oz Eagle, when you would only need to give me $19 change if I paid with a 1-oz-backed LD bill instead?

  • Ray Ubinger

    The phone number shown on the paper LDs (Silver Certificates) is 888-421-6181. I think that’s NORFED’s National Redemption Center. I’ve never called it. NORFED’s all-purpose phone number, stamped on the medallions, is 800.NEW.DOLLAR.

  • Ray U

    Chris Moore writes:

    > please do not yell at me.

    OKAY, SORRY. :-)

    > If the entire point is to eliminate the FED and the US dollar, then why tie the value of the LD to the US dollar?

    The point is to compete with FRN using a dollar defined on a silver base. The US REFUSES to define “dollar” in terms of silver anymore. NORFED is filling that void.

    > Why not define a denomination, say &10 = 1 oz. silver, and be done?

    Because people have heard of dollars, they have not heard of “&’s”.

    >If the idea is to get rid of FRN, then why continually tie the face value of LDs to FRN?

    The idea is to directly compete with FRN, not to ignore FRN. Eliminating FRN is the lofty end goal. Directly competing with it is the method.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Gotcha Ray. But I hope you can see why printing a US FRN suggested exchange rate could be confusing to a LOT of people. I’m a well educated guy, and it confuses me.

    Even more will believe they are accepting “legal tender”. And no bank in the US will give you 20 US $1 bills for one $20 LD, so it appears LDs are not as easily exchangable as say, Yen or Pounds.

  • Ray U

    > about the Silver Certificates. What’s written on it?

    The border of the front of the Series 2006 single says
    “1 DOLLAR NEGOTIABLE 1 DOLLAR
    ONE DOLLAR ONE DOLLAR
    REDEEMABLE BY BEARER ON DEMAND”

    The middle says
    “AMERICAN
    “LIBERTY DOLLAR
    “[serial number]
    “$1 SILVER CERTIFICATE
    “This is a Receipt for One ($1.00) US Dollar given in exchange for Title to one-twentieth (1/20) Troy ounce of .999 fine silver. The acceptance and use of this One ($1.00) Liberty Dollar Receipt is an exercise of the bearer’s First Amendment right to petition the government for a silver based currency as mandated by the U.S. Constitution.
    “[signed]Bernard von NotHaus, Monetary Architect (C) NORFED 2006
    “FOR INFORMATION & REDEMPTION CALL TOLL FREE 888-421-6181 & http://WWW.LIBERTYDOLLAR.ORG

    I’ll write out the words on the back in my next post.

  • Ray U

    RESTRICTED WAREHOUSE RECEIPT TERMS
    IT IS HEREBY AGREED BY THE BEARER THAT THIS WAREHOUSE RECEIPT IS FOR AN UNDIVIDED INTEREST OF ONE TWENTIETH TROY OUNCE .999 FINE SILVER AND THAT REDEMPTION IS RESTRICTED TO COMBINATION WITH OTHER LIKE WAREHOUSE RECEIPTS OR THE BALANCE MAY BE PAID IN FRNs SO THAT WHEN COMBINED EQUAL ONE TROY OUNCE .999 FINE SILVER. THIS WAREHOUSE RECEIPT AT THE WAREHOUSE IDENTIFIED BELOW SHALL EXPIRE UNLESS RENEWED OR SURRENDERED WITHIN TWENTY YEARS FROM DATE OF ISSUE. THE UNDERSIGNED WAREHOUSE OFFICIAL CERTIFIES THAT THIS SILVER IS INSURED AGAINST FIRE AND THEFT. STORAGE AND INSURANCE FEES HAVE BEEN PREPAID FOR FIVE YEARS FROM DATE OF ISSUE. THEREAFTER, STORAGE AND INSURANCE FEES ARE ONE PERCENT PER YEAR OF THE VALUE OF SILVER PRORATED AT THE TIME OF SURRENDER. ADDITIONAL FEES LIMITED TO SHIPPING AND HANDLING MAY BE INCURRED UPON SURRENDER OF THIS WAREHOUSE RECEIPT.
    [date] [signed] WAREHOUSE OFFICIAL
    SHELTER SYSTEM WAREHOUSE
    COEUR D’ALENE, IDAHO

  • jcn50

    I can’t post due to anti-spam thing…

  • jcn50

    I called LD, here is the transcript of the conversation:

    Me: I have a $1 Silver paper Certificate with me, I would like to redeem it to silver.
    Operator: You can’t redeem it to silver, but does it have a “$20 value base” written on it?
    Me: Yes, on the left bottom side.
    Op.: Ok, in that case it will mean that you give us this $1 certificate plus US$19 Federal Reserve Notes, and we will give you one $20 Silver Liberty.
    Me: Oh ok, and how much silver a Silver Liberty has?
    Op: 1 ounce.
    Me: OK, thank you for the information, bye.

  • jcn50

    Some calculus:
    Silver spot price@US$11
    -$1 Silver Certificate = 1/10 oz. of silver = US$1.10 intrinsic value
    +US$19
    = 1 ounce of silver@US$20.10!

    — Examining this in a hypothetical situation —
    Silver spot price at US$990/ounce (LD base x 50 = @US$1000).
    -$1 Silver Certificate, intrinsic value = US$99.
    How much do you think the LibertyDollar company will ask me to have a Silver Liberty coin?…

    Haha! The answer is US$950!!!!

  • jcn50

    Is that inflation proof? :-/ Why do I need to put FRN on the table to have my touch my silver?
    Do you think, in your honest US citizen’s point of view that you are serving the people?…….

  • Ray U

    > “Coins” are [...] ISSUED BY GOVERNMENT.

    18USC486 says NO METAL, not even in an “ORIGINAL DESIGN,” shall be used as currency, except in statutorily specified forms. So, spending LD medallions as money violates 18USC486.

    But, I also think 18USC486 itself violates the Constitution, by impairing obligation of contracts and by not involving a court order (due process) in depriving persons of liberty to trade property. Making 18USC486 an ILLEGAL STATUTE.

    > Liberty Silver rounds may be offered as payment but not represented as U.S. currency or legal tender. “Will you accept payment in silver?”

    Offering LD METAL as MONEY violates 18USC486. See the LD Disclaimer
    http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/disclaimer.htm
    which explicitly cautions us NOT to call the medallions Coins, nor Currency, nor Money, nor to present them as anything but EXAMPLES of what the PAPER LDs are redeemable for.

    I think our best bet is to craft wording for how to offer LD medallions as BARTER.

  • jcn50

    Why do I need to put FRN on the table to have my touch my silver? >> Why do I need to put FRN on the table to touch* my silver?

    One another thing about Silver Certificate: the silver you thought is yours…is in fact becoming the NORFED Silver assets.

    Finally, NORFED isn’t better than the FED. And you can’t go against the Gresham’s law.

  • Clark W

    Ray U (124) still does not address legal definition of “coin” must include being issued by govt; LD rounds NOT issued by govt, clearly marked with private branding markings, therefore do not meet legal definition of “coin,” and therefore not subject to Code 18-486.

    My Webster’s Dictionary says “coin” means “a piece of metal with a distinctive stamp, and of a fixed value and weight, issued by a government and used as money.”

    Not being issued by a govt, LD rounds do not meet either the English definition of a coin, nor the legal definition of a coin. Again, Code 18-486 does NOT apply to LD silver pieces.

    The entire language of 18-486 clearly specifies the ban is on “coins” and not all general pieces of metal.

    The Liberty Silver pieces are LEGAL, as well as the Silver Certificates as Ray U says.

  • Clark W

    It is legal to offer to pay saying “may I pay you in silver?” This doesn’t represent the Liberty Silver as money, U.S. dollars, current currency, or legal tender, but simply for what the round is…silver.

    Seller says What is it? “It is a $20 Liberty Silver. It is 1 oz of silver.” This avoids using the word “coin.” Seller has option to accept this object as payment, voluntarily.

    (Please remember, $20 is its DENOMINATION, and 1 oz silver is its BACKING. The backing is the SILVER ITSELF, not the current market value of raw silver in FRNs, as I have observed previously [58, 86].)

    This is LEGAL. This is in violation of no U.S. Code or statute.

  • jcn50

    No more audits since May 2006:

    http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/information/audits.htm

    Hahaha :))…

  • Clark W

    Section 486: Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals intended to use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined…or imprisoned…or both.

    Taken as a whole statement, not out of context, this law is about COINS. LD rounds do not meet the definition of coins. The code does NOT apply to LD rounds. Liberty Silvers not subject to 18-486, therefore not in violation, therefore are LEGAL.

  • Ray U

    Clark (126) writes:

    >18-486 clearly specifies the ban is on “coins” and not all general pieces of metal.

    Thanks for the correction, but now what IS the LEGAL (not dictionary) definition of Coin?

    > LD rounds [are] NOT issued by govt, clearly marked with private branding markings, therefore do not meet legal definition of “coin,” and therefore not subject to Code 18-486.

    If the legal definition of Coin really does exclude privately minted medallions, then what sort of thing could 18-486 possibly be referring to where it mentions “coins … of original design”?

  • Ray U

    jcn (105, 106) IRRELEVANTLY cites 18-485:

    “Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
    Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph””
    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.”

    Nobody is saying that it is (or should be) legal to use FALSE/FORGED/COUNTERFEIT monetary instruments of any kind.

  • Ray U

    jcn writes:

    >I guess NORFED is not pegging the LD to the US$, but gives an easily exchange rate with the US$ by changing their denomination each time their coins’ values change.

    NORFED has adjusted the LD’s Denomination Base only once in its eight-year history, from $10 (per Troy ounce) to $20, on November 24, 2005.

  • Clark W

    Reply to Ray U (130).

    It sounds like “coins of original design” would include original design pieces intended to pass as govt issue, ie., pass as U.S. Mint. LD rounds clearly are not doing this; LD rounds are not trying to pass as U.S. govt issue; to the contrary, a business phone # and website are clearly printed on each and every LD instrument. LD rounds can be nothing other than privately minted, and all this print is in plain sight.

  • Ray U

    Chris Moore writes:

    > I hope you can see why printing a US FRN suggested exchange rate could be confusing to a LOT of people.

    I’d rather just keep explaining “We need to put dollars back on a silver standard.” Not “put currency back on a silver standard AND change currency unit name.”

    If you’re right, a Norfed competitor may arise, with a silver base AND a new unit name, perhaps “the Chrismoore.” And folks who want NO denomination, just silver-weight statements, may start a THIRD company. But I think there’s a good reason Norfed has no private competitors yet: they’ve thought it through!

    > Even more will believe they are accepting “legal tender”.

    Not my fault.

    > And no bank in the US will give you 20 US $1 bills for one $20 LD, so it appears LDs are not as easily exchangable as say, Yen or Pounds.

    How many banks have you asked? If they’re Fed-member banks (secret list!), I don’t want to deal w/them. It’s better for dollars to stay in the local community anyway.

  • undercover_anarchist

    “The myriad end-uses include applications in mirrors, batteries, cloud-seeding, soldering, photography, ceramics, organic chemistry, electron microscopy, wiring, embroidery, computers, astronautics, medicine, aeronautics, corrosion control, jewelry, dentistry and industrial production.”

    Come on, now. PHOTOGRAPHY??? You want to base an economy on photography???

    The truth is that gold and silver have their INFLATED values (the ultimate anti-hedge against inflation) becasue of the vanity of some slave rapist 5,000 years ago. If you’re on a deserted island, do you want to hold gold, silver, or fruit? Can you eat silver? Can you put it in your car and make it run? Can you make anything more useful than an expensive dildo out of it? The answer is no.

    Goldbuggery is the most incidious form of mental retardation affecting Libertarian circles. You want to sacrifice productive capacity in the exploration and mining of a virtually worthless commodity. I’d rather search for oil.

  • undercover_anarchist

    And are you tinfoil hat wearing future CP members aware of the history of the gold standard? Probably not something your incestuous parents thought at home Bible school, but when the US economy was on a strict gold standard, there was rampant deflation that kept working people in debt slavery forever. The economy can’t grow when people can’t borrow money. You can’t afford to borrow in a deflationary environment. Jesus Christ, go to fucking college and learn a thing or two before you invest your mind in Dugeons & Dragons economic religion.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Of course, LD should be legal. Only idiots would use or accept them and they can do so at their own peril.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Well UA, you did gloss over the other applications mentioned and cherry pick photography. I’m no LD loyalist. I have one $10 coin because I thought they looked cool. But gold and silver are not virtually worthless. I do not live on a deserted island, but rather in a technological society, where enhancing lifestyle is the goal, rather than mere subsistance.

    Gold is a powerful catalyst. Nanoparticles of gold are finding applications in environmental scrubbers that could help eliminate a lot of pollution.

    Besides, put me on that island with a block of silver and I’ll build a solar oven to cook birds and fish.

    Concerning a gold standard: I’m not completely convinced that basing a currency on a metal is any better than fiat. As long as everyone agrees that a piece of paper means something, then it means something. Though I have little training in economics and the topic is not as trivial as many like to believe.

  • Clark W

    Please be aware of the use of fallacious reasoning (137-8)including character assassination, name calling, hasty generalization, and forestalling disagreement, which are distracting techniques and do not put forward true argument based on facts and logic. These are forms of illusory reason known in Argumentation as Fallacies.

    Example: You can’t question a public policy because to question it means you’re not patriotic at a time of war. This is forestalling disagreement.

    There is also gratuitous vulgarity, another distracting technique.

    Most of this I learned in 9th grade English and Argumentation classes.

    Although NOT constructive generally, such expression is a protected right, and therefore, like LDs, is LEGAL.

  • Clark W

    Now to some of the content.

    137 “…gold and silver have inflated values…”

    Gold and silver are elements and are immutable. Their value is obviously assigned by humans. Please understand, silver in part changes in price to reflect what really changes and fluctuates, the VALUE OF THE U.S. DOLLAR.

    Silver has some value, of course, because people just like the stuff. Nobody I have ever presented the Liberty Silver to did not actually like it. It is appealing to hold and handle money made from and/or backed by silver.

    In contrast, FRNs are created OUT OF THIN AIR, by the FED, a private corporation. When I tell people this, nobody, NOBODY, likes it.

  • Clark W

    137: “you want to sacrifice productive capacity in exploration and mining a virtually worthless commodity. I’d rather search for oil.”

    1. Patently invalid choices presented here.

    2. Irrelevant, and

    3. Possibly indicates continued lack of understanding truly what are LDs (silver backed voluntary currency), and their purpose (provide a silver based alternative system to the cursed FRNs).

  • Clark W

    Reply to 138.

    The United States was placed on the gold standard to allow the private central bank to gain complete control over the nation’s money supply. This couldn’t be done with silver based money because the silver supply is so plentiful. Loans were hard to get because the banking industry led by the central bank, called loans in and refused to refinance loans made by regular people in order to seize credit collateral, such as homes, businesses, assets. This is one way that central banks control the “business cycle.” Full explanation in documentary movie THE MONEY MASTERS. Description in 138 patently incorrect, sorry to say.

  • Clark W

    Chris Moore (140) thank you for making some good points.

    Why base money on gold or silver? Extremely important question!

    1. Required by the U.S. Constitution, as I have discussed previously (60).

    2. If every paper dollar is redeemable for a specific qty of silver, ONLY a finite number of dollars can be created because dollars then CAN’T BE MADE OUT OF THIN AIR. Because limited in supply, dollars then would retain buying power.

    3. The Fed in part creates its wealth for its owners by the power of controlling the creation of dollars at infinite mark-up (well, aside the cost of paper and production, they legally make dollars out of thin air), and then the interest collected when their FRN dollars enter circulation by being borrowed by the U.S. Federal govt, secured by power of taxation.

    4. People have innately understood the value of silver base currency compared to fiat money, as I discussed previously (85).

  • Clark W

    4. (Cont’d) We are of a generation where most native born Americans (like me) can not relate to money other than fiat money, it seems so real, so natural, so normal to us. But it takes your true deeper understanding to get that this is not economically healthy, safe, or sustainable. That is in part why our Founding Fathers put these features into our nation’s founding charter, the U.S. Constitution. Money created out of thin air is FAR more vulnerable than silver base money. That is the danger of fiat money. Multiply that problem by the size of our economy in your mind and try to wrap your mind around it. Dear friend, please watch THE MONEY MASTERS. I believe you are going to find it interesting based on the quality of your questions.

  • Ray U

    Irrelevantly AND NOW DECEPTIVELY quoting 18-485 as:

    “Whoever falsely makes [”¦] any coin [”¦] of a denomination higher than 5 cents [”¦] stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, [”¦] in actual use and circulation as money within the United States [”¦] Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both”

    jcn goes on to write:

    > Am I wrong here or I don’t understand English anymore?

    You are deceptive to omit the critical phrase “coin … IN RESEMBLANCE OR SIMILITUDE” of US-made/US-used coins. The differences between LDs and US money are plain. Every US monetary instrument says E Pluribus Unum; no LD instrument does. No US coin says Trust In God, nor USA, nor Liberty Dollar, nor $5/$10/$20/$100/$1000 (LD metal denominations), nor 800.NEW.DOLLAR, nor LIBERTYDOLLAR.ORG.

  • Clark W

    Yes, sorry, must agree with Ray U (147) jcn50 made omissions that are deceptive. Jcn, was that intentional? If so, why would you intentionally bring confusion to an effort to clarify the issue of this chat, ie., the legality status of Liberty Dollars?

  • Ray U

    jcn writes:

    > Op: you give us this $1 certificate plus 19 FRNs, and we will give you one $20 Silver Liberty.

    Them’s the Terms: no redeeming for partial ounces. Now remind us how much silver your govt (whom you trust so much more than Norfed) will give you for one of the US silver certificates.

    You are still stuck thinking of Norfed as a silver dealer. They are not out to sell silver, they are out to convert debt-backed money to silver-backed money. Then you whine that they won’t deal you a 1/20th-ounce piece, which NO silver dealer would bother with.

    >hypothetical situation ””
    >Silver spot price at US$990/ounce

    Wow so like people wheelbarrowing their cash down the street, and the money presses running day and night. So the LD base would probably be around $1500, so your 2006 LD$1 could be exchanged for around LD$75 at the new base. Meanwhile your 2006 US$1 would be able to buy, what, a seventy-fifth of a beer?

  • Ray U

    Clark (129) writes:

    > It is legal to offer to pay saying “may I pay you in silver?” This doesn’t represent the Liberty Silver as money[.]

    I’m not so sure. I think the concept of Paying, per se, may indeed imply MONEY, a term Norfed explicitly cautions us not to use for the LD metal. To my mind, Paying with Money is what happens in all trade which is not barter.

    Can anyone please cite the LEGAL (not dictionary) definition of Coin?

    Also I wonder about the term Cash, not yet used in this discussion but similar to the terms Money, Currency, Coin.

    Also what is your take on, “Henceforth, all Gold and Silver Libertys will be provided with the clear understanding that it is NORFED’s intent that all Gold and Silver Libetys are provided as examples of the goods on deposit for the warehouse receipts distributed by NORFED.”
    http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/disclaimer.htm

    To me it sounds like they’re asking us to offer only the paper LDs in actual payment.