Exporting Democracy, One Bloodcurdling Scream at a Time

Some more Abu Ghraib torture photos (and some videos) have now surfaced. They are viewable here, and this source informs us there some even more disturbing ones which haven’t yet been released.

On days like today, AmeriKa should feel especially proud they re-elected Bush. Let’s go buy some more yellow ribbon car magnets and American flags so we can continue to feel good about ourselves.

posted Feb 15th, 2006 by Stephen Gordon
  • http://www.libertyfilter.com putrimalu

    Prediction: This will go away in a few days. IF it even makes a blip on the MSM radar.

  • nsarwark

    Well, at least they’re not cartoons of the Prophet.

  • http://willtoexist.com Trevor

    The people responsible will be or have been punished. That’s the difference between the old and new Iraq. In the old, those responsible for the much wider torture going on were not held accountable – they were actually government sanctioned.

    But no one wants to hear any of the positive things happening in Iraq. You’re all focused on doom and gloom and these sort of aberrant horror stories.

  • disinter
  • http://www.libertyfilter.com putrimalu

    Hey, Trevor… You have 2 big problems with your rush to defend torture:

    You say: “those responsible for the much wider torture going on were not held accountable – they were actually government sanctioned.”

    That’s true. It was sanctioned by the American government, who traded with Saddam Hussein and Iraq. It was sanctioned by Dick Cheney, who traded with the brutal government of Iraq, by Donald Rumsfeld who gave them arms, and other crooks in the US government.

    You also say: “The people responsible will be or have been punished.”

    That’s not true, either – Bush and Cheney are still in office. If anyone is punished, it will be a low-level corporal or something like Lynddie England – the ones that actually approved torture will skate. (Not to mention those who lied us into war to begin with.)

    And as for all the “positive things” happening in Iraq. They don’t even begin to compare with all we and the world have lost and will lose in Bush’s war.

  • john g4lt

    trevor:

    Lynndie England is a free person today. This is punishment?

  • paulie cannoli

    “The people responsible will be or have been punished.”

    Maybe – maybe not. The Bush Crime Family first have to be impeached and removed, before they declare martial law.

    “That’s the difference between the old and new Iraq. In the old, those responsible for the much wider torture going on were not held accountable – they were actually government sanctioned.”

    They actually are now, and what makes you think it was wider? You really think we’ve seen all that’s going on now?

    “But no one wants to hear any of the positive things happening in Iraq.”

    Like the fact the Bush/Clinton Crime Family Commission has killed ten times as many Iraqis as Saddam, in one third the time?

    “You’re all focused on doom and gloom and these sort of aberrant horror stories.”

    They’re aberrant only in the moral sense, not in the sense of being unusual. BTW where’s your state LP on Bush impeachment and war crimes?

  • Matt

    Good God these people are just criminals.

  • vforvandyke

    john g4lt: Lynndie England was sentenced to 3 years.

  • john g4lt

    steven:

    ah, well, that makes it all right then, as it will be a whole two and a half more years for her. she could have gotten more time for backtalking an officer…

  • vforvandyke

    john g4lt: I didn’t say that made it right, I was just clarifying where you missed the mark.

  • disinter
  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Trevor

    Glad to see you are still around. Most of these jack asses don’t know you are in Irag and are in the army. You are the real eyewitness to history.

    Most of these people don’t have a clue. They have no idea how to make the world a better place because all they can do is criticize those that do take action. They are fed the news through opinionated blogs and self-serving news media which fails to print the truth.

    You face the same challenges as those that served in Vietnam. I knew what actually happened, but when it was twisted and distorted for home consumption, it did not even come close to the truth.

    You need to know the truth. The slanted, self-serving bloggers and news media is changing American opinion and are even now beginning to demonize you and your fellow soldiers as the bad guys. Remember, you are in a very exclusive club, albiet a very small minority. You have my support and will be welcomed home by other brothers in arms.

  • artusregister

    Most of these people don’t have a clue. They have no idea how to make the world a better place because all they can do is criticize those that do take action.

    It has become increasingly popular to liken any action to something positive. If a local municipality were to set fire to a slum, they would likely get rid of some n’aer-do-wells. A lot of innocent people would die and the survivors would be homeless, but some action would have been taken. Action, for the sake of “doing something” is the path that led us to tyrannical legislation like the PATRIOT Act.

  • artusregister

    Torturous actions like those pictured certainly give us the clue you insist we don’t have. I don’t think for a moment that the average military person in Iraq (or anywhere) is capable of such a thing. But your attitude, and that of Trevor, seems to be that this type of barbaric, insurgent-spawning behavior is inconsequential and not worthy of discussion.

  • artusregister

    You state that we

    are fed the news through opinionated blogs and self-serving news media which fails to print the truth.

    In keeping with the topic at hand, I would like you to correct my thoughts that those who would torture and murder prisoners in violation of treaties and every notion of human decency are cowardly lumps of shit. If there is some honor in these actions it has escaped us. Please illuminate it for us. And, if you still have time, perhaps you could explain all of the good this war has done.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Artis Register is a coward. Trevor is the real hero. Artis Register assumes the photo is of the prison. For all we know, it may be from a slaughter house or a pig farm. Again, wishful believeing and demonizing soldiers because that is what antiwar groups do and I am sure you are familiar with them and their propoganda.

    Admit it, Artis Register, you hate the military but expect them to be available to keep you from having to worship Allah and speak Arabic.

    Again, Artis Register, you believe only what you want to believe. You have a closed mind.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Artis Register, ever been in the military? Ever done anything to contribute to society or are you only a taker? Seems as if you really got pissed off. I will make you the same offer I have made other bloggers, how brave are you? Write me back to display bravery and I will give you my name, address phone number and directions how to get where I live. I will be waiting for you to see how brave you are. You do have to agree to show and not play games with me like maybe you will show up. I want to see if you will face down a 60 year old Vietnam Vet. I don’t think so even though you are surely half my age, piss ant.

  • paulie cannoli

    J, yeah right, all the photos are fake. Find any WMDs yet?

    you hate the military but expect them to be available to keep you from having to worship Allah and speak Arabic.

    hell no! I don’t hate all the people in it, although I do hate the institution and wish it was disbanded asap.

    They are a much bigger, realer and more immediate threat to my freedom than anyone wanting to worship Allah or speak Arabic. I’m more worried about being forced to wosrship W or the state in general and give tithes to their religion through the armed ushers of the IRS.

    As for your war….hey, keep fighting it. Go there yourself for all I care, or send money if you’re too old or whatever. But please, pretty please with sugar on top quit stealing our money through the terrorist IRS gang to pay for it. Quit doing it in the name of all Americans so we all suffer the blowback. And quit the stop loss and draft-in-the-wind.

    There’s enough of y’all who want this war to fight it yourselves.

  • paulie cannoli

    ever been in the military? Ever done anything to contribute to society or are you only a taker?

    aha, it is those who survive off stolen tax money who are the contributors to society. logical, not.

    Seems as if you really got pissed off.

    As opposed to Julian, who sounds calm and collected (hah!)

    I will make you the same offer I have made other bloggers, how brave are you? Write me back to display bravery and I will give you my name, address phone number and directions how to get where I live. I will be waiting for you to see how brave you are. You do have to agree to show and not play games with me like maybe you will show up. I want to see if you will face down a 60 year old Vietnam Vet.

    Ooh, tough guy! Well I guess some kids grow old, but never grow up or become mature. You want to be brave? Well then go fight and/or finance your own wars instead of stealing other people’s money and kids to do it. You’ll be our hero, we promise. Now go, hurry!

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Artis Register

    8160 Pine Drive
    Rye, Colorado 81069

    You will know you are at the right address when you see the sign with a revolver pointing at you that says, “Forget about the dog, beware of the owner”. It is a long drive way and I am in the mountains in the country. Look it up at Mapquest. I’ll be waiting for you, asshole.

    PS Believe me, I am not too old to face you down. You will understand when you arrive. See you soon, military bashing asshole.

  • disinter
  • disinter

    Julian sounds like he could be the next uni-bomber.

  • john g4lt

    Julian

    I have as much business as you do there, since I was discharged in 1992 from GW1. I’ll be on the next plane after yours….

  • paulie cannoli

    Shoot, cooter, you ain’t on the plane to I-raq to kill them hajis yit?

    Well what’cha waitin’ fer?

    Dude, seriously, what is wrong with you? How is it possible that at 60 you still are itching to get in fistfights over….OMG…politics…..so badly you are soliciting fistfights on the internet? How silly.

    Go join a toughman boxing circuit, or something. Wait, no, you have to be a parody, you can’t be real, can you?

    Or maybe…hey…this old coot is just lonely and looking for some man-on-man physical contact. Is he one of those gay cowboys from the Willie Nelson and Bareback Mountin’ thing?

    Really, seriously, who would drive out to nowhere to get in a silly fistfight with this fool? They would have to be even crazier than him, or at least equally so.

    Oh yeah….and he is desparate to fight for the honor of….a gang of protection racket thugs who live off stolen money and their enforcers who have apparently screwed him over badly enough to qualify for a section 8.

  • paulie cannoli

    If Julian is really real, and really believes the stuff he writes, it is really is sad. I’m sorry for making fun of him. He is a victim of the military meat-grinder and has emerged from another horrible, immoral war mentally traumatized and mentally damaged for life. He was used by the scumbag corporate-government elite to fight their battles for them and now wants to inflict the same horror on his grandkids’ generation to justify what happened to him, and his part in it.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    You are also invited to show up.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    I am for real and am not screwed up. You are the one living on the cliff of insanity. Hope to see you soon, very soon.

  • artusregister

    Because you lack the ability to engage in dialogue over a topic of your own invention and obviously disagree with a position I don’t hold but that you have invented for me, you are challenging me to some sort of fight? What are you, twelve? You are really embarrassing yourself, Julian.
    I don’t give half a damn what you think, but I do want to make my positions clear to anyone else who may have decided to follow your lead and make mindless assumptions:
    I have a great deal of respect for our military. I have never bashed the military. But I will continue to bash and insult anyone who would torture those they have taken captive as such actions smack of cowardice.
    I am opposed to the use of our military for globe-policing, nation-building and saber-rattling. And I gleefully bash any myrmidons who blindly follow a rogue Administration like this one who shamelessly put our military personnel in harms way without just cause.

  • artusregister

    Now go ahead and put some more words in my mouth and argue against a phantom. And congratulations on owning a cheesy sign bearing an old and tired cliché about fearing the dog’s owner. We’re all really impressed.

  • disinter

    Perhaps he was subject to a military LSD experiment that went bad?

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Mike Nelson

    You, too are invited to show up.

  • paulie cannoli

    You are also invited to show up.

    Thanks, but you don’t sound like good company. If I wanted to hang out with guys like you, it would be a lot easier to check myself into the nuthouse in whatever town i’m passing through for a 72 hour evaluation.

    Hope to see you soon, very soon.

    Well, keep hoping, but you probably won’t get lucky. I have nothing to prove, fighting you wouldn’t prove anything anyway, and the very fact that you suggest it – apparently seriously – is proof enough how screwed up you are.

    Do you think that winning a fistfight would make you right, justifies your war, tortuturing people, and stealing our money to do it? What if the other dude won – would that make you wrong? You don’t think anyone who is against this evil war in the whole world could kick your ass?

    If you are a parody, good job. Whether or not you are I know there are really people out there who think like this. Very sad. Go fight your own wars and leave us out.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    I never mentioned a fist fight. Let your mind do some thinking. Yes, I am for real.

    Stephen Van Dyke

    When are you going to throw a big party and have some of these assholes show up? Please keep me informed, son, as I do not want to miss the party.

  • disinter

    Julian,

    Sorry, againt my morals. That would be like me saying it is okay to invade Iraq because some nutbag (Saddam) is acting like a fool. This particular nutbag just happens to be in Colorado.

    I prefer to let the nutbag continue to be a nutbag. Free entertainment.

  • paulie cannoli

    Perhaps he was subject to a military LSD experiment that went bad?

    Perhaps it was a radiation experiment?

    More likely he is full of doo doo. He probably desparately wants to be the tough guy he imagines he is, and the net is a cheap easy way to do it. And no, I’m not driving a thousand miles to find out, because I don’t care how tough he is. Duh!

    Chances are he is either twelve, a parody, never actually served, or was a paper pusher or janitor or something if he was really in Vietnam at all.

    The final, sad possibility is that he is real and honest.

    If so, I’m sorry for him, and just as sorry for the rest of us who have to live in a “democracy” where guys like him are allowed to vote on what to do with our lives, freedoms, and money.

    This is a good illustration why democracy is a horribly bad idea to begin with, and certainly NOT worth exporting (particularly at gunpoint, making it a contradiction in terms to boot).

  • disinter

    Paulie,

    Well said.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    I am for real. I was in Vietnam. I did shit you do not even want to know about. I could make you weak stomach wimps puke if I told it like it is.

    My son, Stephen Van Dyke will verify I am for real. He will verify I treaded where few men will go and I am proud of that.

    He does not agree with me on much and most likely does not even like me but I am his father.

    I know how to survive. Death does not scare me as I have faced it and conquered it. Yes, that makes me dangerous to you if you cross me because I really don’t give a shit about you or what you believe in.

    Freedom is great because it allows those like me to survive and thrive in your fucked up society. You will never understand as you have never walked in my shoes and faced what I have. I have my friends, all like me. Do we not gravitate toward those most like ourselves? Yes, I am dangerous, much dangerous to the establishment than are you because I am willing to back up what I believe and write.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)
  • paulie cannoli

    J)I am for real. I was in Vietnam. I did shit you do not even want to know about. I could make you weak stomach wimps puke if I told it like it is.

    P)How do you know what all I know or where I’ve been? And supposing you were and did, all the more reason why we are right and you are wrong.

    J)I never mentioned a fist fight. Let your mind do some thinking.

    P)Why not, I’m bored. Perhaps he wants to shoot me, kill me in some other way, rape me, torture me, or some combination thereof. Maybe he wants to make money selling the videotape on the snuff film circuit. Why would anyone be the least bit interested in going out of his way to find out? Maybe he just wants to get drunk and blow me. Sorry, still not interested.

  • paulie cannoli

    M) That would be like me saying it is okay to invade Iraq because some nutbag (Saddam) is acting like a fool. This particular nutbag just happens to be in Colorado.

    P) Excellent point. Let’s dispatch the USSMC pronto to occupy Colorado, kill a few hundred thousand people, and torture, rape, humiliate, loot, imprison and poison the rest. Nice.

    J)My son, Stephen Van Dyke will verify I am for real.

    P)Luke, I am your father! If true, he at least did one thing right in his life. If false, we have a suspect as author of the parody.

    J)I am dangerous, much dangerous to the establishment than are you because I am willing to back up what I believe and write.

    P)You, if real, are the victim and pawn of the establishment. And one more again how do you know what I can back up and what I can’t?

    Hope it’s not too late for you to get mental help (if real) or for the real guys like you to get it before it is too late for you and/or the rest of us.

    Hope springs eternal.

  • michelle shinghal

    Hey Julian- it has been some time. Please be a sweetheart and tell me on which page your photo appears. I have been through 10 pages and haven’t found you.

  • paulie cannoli
  • paulie cannoli

    Also, if true, Steve Van Dyke has my sympathies for having such a man for a father. I guess whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, although that’s not actually true.

  • paulie cannoli

    re: #43,

    Sorry again, I’m being cruel to the mentally ill. It’s really not nice, and I should really stop right now.

    Such cruelty is a small measure of what is messed up with the whole torture situation. We must all recognize it is a part of our own human nature, too, and strive to not act on it.

    Just as importantly, when such actions have real life consequences, the perpetrators have to be brought to justice. In this case, not the pawns doing the torture but the puppetmasters behind the strings.

    It is wrong to wish that they suffer the same fate themselves, but it’s natural at the same time.

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  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Michelle Shinghal

    Why don’t you read the whole site. Maybe, just maybe you will learn something and become enlightened. I’m there. Keep looking.

    I guess you want to ping me too. I really don’t give a shit.

    Paulie Cannoli

    I am crazy and proud of it. I can take care of myself so don’t be concerned about mental treatment for me. Stephen does not need your sympathies. He is his own man. I may be responsible for him being 180 degrees opposite from me as he did not find me to be a valuable role model so he chose his own path. I take credit for him being independent and not being like me.

    There is a price to pay for freedom and I am one of the casualties, mentally, and am proud of it. I have a chest full of medals and got no respect from assholes like you. There is a whole generation of us that never fitted into society but now I am older and do not give a shit anymore that I am different.

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  • michelleshinghal

    Julian, I was at work and had only a second (after a meeting) to look. I buy shares of my company, and as a shareholder, do not like people doing personal things on the company’s dime. BTW, did you see the pic of the detainee who was bound on a floor with a foreign object in his ass? And, do you think that raping a person is acceptable too?

    I will go back to your referenced site and try to learn something. I am betting that I will not see any of you raping people.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Michelle Shinghal

    Did I ever say I approve of rape or torture? I do not. When I was in Vietnam, I just shot the mother fuckers and made damn sure they were dead. End of story. No wounded or prisoners to worry about. How about that? Take no prisoners, there will be no torture.

    I guess you will disapprove of those tactics but I really don’t give a shit. They were trying to kill me for their country and I believed that General Patton was correct when he said “Let those other poor bastards die for their country” (paraphrased). I’m alive and those bastards are dead and that is the way it should be.

    The mistake made was all the prisoners that were taken. No prisoners, no torture.

  • michelleshinghal

    You did your job as a soldier without resorting to anything barbaric. (FTR, saving your own life is not barbaric.) Looking back on Vietnam, aren’t you just a little pissed that you carry emotional and mental scars today as payment for the mistakes of politicians too short sighted to mind their own business?

    And, thank you. Thank you for finally admitting that you do not support ALL of this shit.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Michelle Shinghal

    I was not trying to save my life. I wanted to kill communists and volunteered twice to do it. On top of that, I volunteered for just the type of action that guaranteed I would either kill or be killed.

    One less communist or for that matter, anyone that believes in a barbaric totalitarian system be it Ho Chi Minh’s soldiers or the Muslim radicals trying to jam their facist dictatorships in the name of Allah is better off dead so we can live in peace.

    Sometimes the chaos of violence is the only way to establish peace. It is important our way of life succeeds, not theirs.

    I do not apologise for killing as many of those bastards as I could. I ran out of time and the army would not allow me to stay for one more tour. I figured it was a loss to them as they spent huge sums turning me and my team into an efficient killing unit. I was the team leader (Sgt.) at a young age so that proves how efficient I was at killing.

  • michelleshinghal

    I guess I misunderstood your intent:

    I’m alive and those bastards are dead and that is the way it should be.

    You seem to be proud of your efficiency as a killer and I will not even start to argue with you over that. I would like to know how our current administration differs from the facist dictatorships that you (and I) detest. Do you still feel like you were successful killing off commies while there are many more “democratically elected” communist parties springing up everyday?

  • http://chrisbennettfromillinois.blogspot.com/ Chris Bennett

    Artis,

    Don’t bother going to Rye Colorado. It’s a pissy town with 3 traffic lights and rednecks galore. I think the Klan still hangs out there drinking Old Mil or Coors and burning crosses in the name of Jesus and Hitler. Either way don’t let him get the best of you!

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Chris Bennett

    No traffic lights here.

    Why don’t you come with him? This is not a racist town as you implied. We are survivalists.

  • john g4lt

    Julian

    you’re still here? Guess I can put away those enlistment papers then….

  • Wied

    “One less communist or for that matter, anyone that believes in a barbaric totalitarian system be it Ho Chi Minh’s soldiers or the Muslim radicals trying to jam their facist dictatorships in the name of Allah is better off dead so we can live in peace.”

    Yeah, Ho Chi Minh & Sadaam were definitely jamming their fascist dictatorships onto others. I remember when all those Viet Cong invaded America….oh, wait, maybe it was Americans who went to Viet Nam. I guess all those people over in Viet Nam who had their own way to live were interfering with your peace. So the only logical thing to do was go over there & kill them. Makes sense.

    Oh, and I preemptively accept your offer to come to Colorado, I’ve never been that far out west before. Maybe I can crash at your place for a week or so & we can go skiing? Great! How does the second week of March sound?

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Wied

    There won’t be any skiing and you won’t stay but please do show up.

  • paulie cannoli

    There is a price to pay for freedom and I am one of the casualties, mentally, and am proud of it. I have a chest full of medals and got no respect from assholes like you.

    Not true at all. A lot of the guys who were in ‘nam were still around when we were knocking around Central America and the Caribbean in the ’80s. I have tremendous respect for many (but not all) of them as individuals, just not the policies that caused them to do what they did. I also have respect for those who were conscientious objectors and fought against the war – they were the ones who really did the right thing.

    Did I ever say I approve of rape or torture? I do not. When I was in Vietnam, I just shot the mother fuckers and made damn sure they were dead. End of story. No wounded or prisoners to worry about. How about that? Take no prisoners, there will be no torture.

    That’s all? I thought you did shit I don’t even want to know about. It may have been the other way around, gramps.

  • paulie cannoli

    There is a price to pay for freedom and I am one of the casualties, mentally, and am proud of it.

    The price you paid was not for freedom, it was for corporate profits, CIA heroin trafficking, and the military-industrial complex. I know you don’t want to face this fact, and I can understand why, but it is true.

    One less communist or for that matter, anyone that believes in a barbaric totalitarian system be it Ho Chi Minh’s soldiers or the Muslim radicals trying to jam their facist dictatorships in the name of Allah is better off dead so we can live in peace.

    The sad thing is that it is the Bush-Clinton Crime Family Commission which is jamming their fascist dictatorship – in the name of freedom, peace and democracy. And if you continue to play into their game, there will never be any peace – just the false promise of peace like a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. They’ve got you chasing the mechanical rabbit and you know how old greyhounds die.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    We let our dogs eat the bodies of the dead. Want more information?

  • paulie cannoli

    I am crazy and proud of it. I can take care of myself so don’t be concerned about mental treatment for me.

    It’s really nothing to be proud of. Although I do understand, I was proud of being crazy once too. But in the end you event find yourself worn out – just hungry, angry, lonely and tired (HALT) and then it’s time to get some help or die.

    I definitely grok the mental and physical scars and not fitting into society, but fighting against falling into the bottomless pit of lunacy is ultimately a good thing.

    Sometimes the chaos of violence is the only way to establish peace. It is important our way of life succeeds, not theirs.

    But more often, you become the very thing you fight against after you’ve fought long enough.

  • paulie cannoli

    We let our dogs eat the bodies of the dead. Want more information?

    Not really. I got tired of that sort of shit a long time ago.

  • Doug Moran

    I think all reasonable people can agree that this isn’t torture. Unpleasant for the prisoners perhaps, but not torture. Let’s not lose perspective people. These are not good or nice people being held in Abu Ghraib. This pussification of America that some of you are knee deep in is going to get people killed here on our soil and by creating hyped rage in the middle east by some muslims.

    Of course those of you that are supposedly so outraged by this “torture”, may realize somewhere in that noggin of yours that your real outrage exists simply because there is a Republican in the Whitehouse. God bless our current and past soldiers.

    In case you forgot…America=Good guys, Radical Muslims terrorist=Abu Ghraib prisoners=Bad guys.

    If any one of these prisoners in Abu Ghraib had a chance to get their hands on you or any member of your family first…..well I think you know what the outcome would be.

  • artusregister

    But more often, you become the very thing you fight against after you’ve fought long enough.

    Indeed, if you stare into the abyss long enough…

  • paulie cannoli

    I think all reasonable people can agree that this isn’t torture.

    Bullshit.

    from antiwar.com blog today,

    Absolutely Horrible
    Updated.

    Here is Antiwar.com’s archive of the newly released Abu Ghraib photos, and this is the complete version of the video Australian SBS TV news program. The one BradBlog has cuts right to the chase.

    Shame on you fools who think you can have an empire without torture and murder. This is your fault.

    Posted by: Scott Horton

    p) Stop trying to evade responsibility for it, like the “good Germans”….at least have the honor to face it.

  • paulie cannoli

    I think all reasonable people can agree that this isn’t torture.

    Bullshit. See Scott Horton’s post at antiwar.com blog from yesterday, and follow the links.

    As Scott wrote, “updated.

    Here is Antiwar.com’s archive of the newly released Abu Ghraib photos, and this is the complete version of the video Australian SBS TV news program. The one BradBlog has cuts right to the chase.

    Shame on you fools who think you can have an empire without torture and murder. This is your fault.”

    and that is 100% correct. At least have the honor to face what you are responsible for.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Doug – have you seen the pictures? The blood. The beatings. Wake up and smell the coffee, dude.

  • artusregister

    In case you forgot…America=Good guys, Radical Muslims terrorist=Abu Ghraib prisoners=Bad guys.

    What the hell are you talking about? Are you really pretending to think that the average Iraqi prisoner (captured soldier) is a “Radical Muslim Terrorist?”

    No one has any reason to believe that the typical prisoner would harm their civilian family. In any case, nothing justifies this obvious torture. While I would likely agree that it wasn’t torture from the first pictures I saw, this latest batch leaves no doubt. If you have seen them, you can’t honestly disagree that these people were tortured.

  • artusregister

    You also seem convinced that an American flag patch on a uniform elevates a soldier to perfect status. It doesn’t. Those responsible for this torture aren’t “good guys” by virtue of their uniform. They are sadistic piles of shit whose actions will breed countless insurgents and terrorists, shoving moderate Arabs to extremism that will cost American lives. Your concern for the “good guys” should manifest itself by condemning this ignorant shit instead of spouting your moronic and pathetic attempt at justification.

  • Doug Moran

    Those responsible for what you call torture have been dealt with already. This are old images and videos. I do think it was wrong of those idiots to do what they did to the prisoners, but you and the media simply reach too far in further hopes to condemn america as a whole. Good luck with you doom and gloom attitude. Those prisoners are there because they either tried to kill our soldiers or they helped someone kill our soldiers.

  • paulie cannoli

    I think all reasonable people can agree that this isn’t torture.

    Bullshit. See Scott Horton’s post at antiwar.com blog from yesterday, and follow the links.

    As Scott wrote, “updated.

    Here is Antiwar.com’s archive of the newly released Abu Ghraib photos, and this is the complete version of the video Australian SBS TV news program. The one BradBlog has cuts right to the chase.

    Shame on you fools who think you can have an empire without torture and murder. This is your fault.”

    and that is 100% correct. At least have the honor to face what you are responsible for.

  • http://www.libertyfilter.com putrimalu

    To Doug Moran:

    You say that: “prisoners are there because they either tried to kill our soldiers or they helped someone kill our soldiers”

    But you are just plain wrong. It is widely acknowledged that the majority of those in Abu Ghraib and other US prisons in Iraq were NOT terrorists, but simply people rounded up in massive sweeps of Iraqi villages, in hopes that they’d have some sort of intelligence value. Army officials even admit this, and say that the majority of detainees were “Of No Intelligence Value” or just plain innocent. Red Cross estimates up to 70 percent were innocent (and soldiers who worked there say it might even be more.)

    Further, it’s now known that minors, as well as the WIVES of insurgents were kept in US prisons. They certainly didn’t do what you claim.

    In any case, if they tried to kill our soldiers, it may because our soldiers INVADED THEIR COUNTRY. In this case, once captured they should be considered POWs and be treated humanely.

  • artusregister

    Those responsible for what you call torture have been dealt with already.

    I have clearly missed the reports of those who ordered this shit or overlooked it being “dealt with.” Why don’t you link us all to that information so we can stop worrying?
    This sort of widespread abuse doesn’t just happen. Do you really think Lynndie England and her pals couldn’t find a deck of cards one night and decided they would just slice up a few prisoners. Do you really think this was going on without any officers being aware?

  • artusregister

    they either tried to kill our soldiers or they helped someone kill our soldiers.

    Many of them, yes: that’s what soldiers do, Doug. They try to kill opposing soldiers. Being a soldier doesn’t make one a “Radical Muslim terrorist,” despite your claims to the contrary. A great way to keep those people from killing or trying to kill our soldiers is get our soldiers the hell out of there. But your hawkish attitude prevents you from understanding such simplicity.

    but you and the media simply reach too far in further hopes to condemn america as a whole.

    I defy you to cite an example of anytime I have condemned America as a whole. I love my country and am probably the most nationalist libertarian you’ll ever encounter. However, love of country doesn’t equate to excusing immoral and illegal abuses of power that will clearly further damage our country.

  • michelle shinghal

    I think all reasonable people can agree that this isn’t torture. Unpleasant for the prisoners perhaps, but not torture.

    Look again at the photo heading this page. Rape is only unpleasant?

  • michelleshinghal

    Oops, sorry about the last photo reference- the one I referred to is actually at the top of this post:
    http://hammeroftruth.com/2006/02/16/a-veterans-perspective-on-the-abu-ghraib-photos/

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Aiding and giving comfort to the enemy is what you people are doing. You are surely creating a situation where they are dancing with glee because you bunch of assholes are doing their propoganda work for them here in the USA.

    As far as I am concerned, you are choosing sides with those bastards so that will make you a traitor and an enemy of the USA.

    Yes, you said too much information when I mentioned our dogs ate the dead bodies of the enemy. How the hell do you think we got them to track so well? It was a system of rewards.

    Some of my team wore the dried ears of their kills around their necks as necklaces. It was way macho. About the only thing we did not do was eat the flesh of the dead or drink their blood.

  • paulie cannoli

    Aiding and giving comfort to the enemy is what you people are doing.

    No, that’s what you are doing. The real enemy is the ruling regime gang of the USSA comprised mainly of the NSGOP (Bush Crime Family) and the Democrats Against Democracy (AKA Clinton Crime Family), in reality a two-faced one party system of destruction. They are the real traitors and enemies of the people and you are playing their game.

    Yes, you said too much information when I mentioned our dogs ate the dead bodies of the enemy. How the hell do you think we got them to track so well? It was a system of rewards.

    Yawn. I probably did way worse. Just because I’m for peace now don’t assume I was never a scumbag sadist. I still have those tendencies and capabilities, just a better capacity to control them and try to prevent them from spreading in me and the world. You never know who you are talking to. If you think you can shock me, LOL.

  • paulie cannoli

    Some of my team wore the dried ears of their kills around their necks as necklaces. It was way macho.

    LOL, how primitive and childish…..you are like so impressed with yourself.

    About the only thing we did not do was eat the flesh of the dead or drink their blood.

    Slackers. Drinking blood is fun, and definitely a great adrenaline rush, although probably not very sanitary.

  • paulie cannoli

    whoops….2nd and 4th lines above are mine….

  • paulie cannoli

    Just as a point of info, not very smart to give out your address on the ‘net. You think everyone who is for peace is a wimp? Maybe I’m just trying to hold off the destructive tendencies in the world and myself which I know all too well. But if you were capable of making me give in to them and respond, it could be in a way which would not be good for you.

    Suppose, for example, a team flew in from Russia, bough some military hardware (inventory loss) at FT Carson and flew over your house in a few months. They would fly out of DIA a couple of days later. You wouldn’t know what hit you. There would be no effective CSI.

    I’m not saying I could or could not arrange it through extended family/former associates, but if I could, I sure hope I wouldn’t do something like that, because it would be morally wrong. I hope the rest of the human species controls themselves in matters such as these as well.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    I cannot respond to you because I have been banned from this site for not agreeing with everything libertarian.

    You win.

  • vforvandyke

    Wrong, you were banned because you continued to make ad hominem attacks and threats instead of debating in a civilized manner.

    You don’t have to agree with what’s written here, but you do have to act like a mature adult instead of name-calling and trolling.

  • vforvandyke

    Or… if you are going to name-call and troll, at least be funny or clever about it. Hell, we all use hyperbole here to make our points but if you’re gonna serve it, you better be prepared to have it served right back to you.

  • paulie cannoli

    Julian,

    I’m glad you are finally coming around to seeing the light, as Winston Smith did back at the end of 1984.

    I can understand missing the danger of the jungle, surrounded by unseen enemies….the fear is addictive, as much as the violence.

    The difference is that leaving your address as a challenge on the ‘net is different from popping up at night from your foxhole and waving your dick around in the dark. After all it opens you up to all sorts of unconventional warfare, not just country ‘Cong with shit-smeared sticks and AKs.

    You never know who you are talking to…there are a lot of really, really sick people on here who may not even post…

    We need 12-step recovery from war/violence addiction both as individuals and as a society.

    The messed up thing is that torture really is fun (until it happens to you; at least for most people) but so is meth, at first…it’s not so fun further down the line.