Dateline, Perverted Justice, and Murphy, TX

There is some strange stuff happening in Texas. I opened the news this morning and learned that a Kaufman district attorney killed himself.

The former Kaufman County District Attorney committed suicide Sunday when police tried to arrest him at his Terrell home on a warrant tied to a child-predator sting.

Murphy police Sgt. Snow Robertson said Louis “Bill” Conradt Jr. solicited sex from a decoy posing online as a 13-year-old boy.

Apparently Dateline and Perverted Justice set up shop down the street from me, in Murphy, and lured men to the small city with promises of sex with children. Mr. Conradt had not actually gone to the Murphy address to meet Dateline and police, but a warrant was issued anyway.

In the same sting, a Dallas ISD teacher was arrested.

Records, however, show that Mr. Kendall teaches at Spence Middle School. That would put him in daily contact with children about the same age as the 13- to 14-year-old whom authorities say the suspects thought they were soliciting over the Internet.

Mr. Kendall remained in the Collin County Jail late Monday in lieu of $50,000 bail and couldn’t be reached.

In similar news, the death of Leander Middle School’s-vice principal has been ruled a suicide.

On Oct. 5, Joe Ramirez was found in his burned-down home. The medical examiner says he died of smoke inhalation and burns.

It happened at his house in the Williamson County town of Andice just hours after Ramirez learned he was under investigation for a complaint of inappropriate conduct with a student.

It is really interesting to me that people who work in schools and law enforcement seem to be the first caught with dirty thoughts. (see here, here ,here, and here.) Homeland Stupidity made the point a while back that using decoys pretending to be children in these online hunts actually busts people for thought crimes.

As much as it bothers me that someone this high up in the federal government likes having sex with children, it bothers me even more that anyone can go to prison for nothing more than the thoughts inside his head. For that’s all Doyle has done. He only thought about sex with children. There were no actual children involved.

I actually felt the same way at the time, but in Texas, an Internet IM session is enough for arrest. I think that the stings actually hurt more than they help and I certainly don’t like them happening down the street. I am not the only one who feels that way.

The Murphy City Council is considering firing the city manager and police chief because they approved an Internet sex sting that brought pedophiles into a neighborhood filled with children.

“Everybody’s mad,” said Michael Romero, who lives nearby and has two daughters, 4 and 5. “Why are they drawing these people into our little, quiet neighborhood?”

Sounds like a valid concern to me. The mayor called Perverted Justice a “vigilante group” and said that Murphy is off limits.

Mr. Baldwin, the mayor, said he considers Perverted Justice a “vigilante group” that is belittling the community. The group and Dateline should not plan another sting in Murphy, he said.

“I’d just hate to see Murphy drug through the mud and see us become the poster child for the Perverted Justice debate.”

This is going to be very interesting. Collin County has concerned citizens and I do not see the parents in Murphy letting this one go.

Update: I was contacted by a person who acts as a decoy in these types of cases. (Not Peverted Justice) I must admit that I learned a lot about the nature of these busts and how the decoys work. The decoys are not law enforcement, so there is no entrapment. The group I talked to operates without donations or funding. They do not do the job to harass individuals- they do it to get true predators off the Internet and in prison. They have a 100% conviction rate and do not bother with questionable offenses like a 19 year old chatting up a 14 year old. They do not initiate contact, and if the overage profile attempts to back out of the chat, they allow it to happen. The profiles used are real children, though children are never involved in the chat. The group does not accept awards or payment of any kind and prefers to remain anonymous. I expressed the NIMBY concern that I had. It was reported that a fleeing suspect threw a bag of cocaine in the Murphy neighborhood. The source acknowledged that problem, but overall seemed above reproach in motive and effort. It certainly seemed to me, after hearing examples, that the group succeeded in truly assisting in the justice process. I appreciate that I was able to learn more about some of the programs out there.

posted by michelleshinghal
  • disinter

    What the hell is wrong with these sick perverts that get off on setting people up to get arrested for doing nothing?

  • you know me

    So you guys are sticking up for these type of people?? What happens if they were to come into the city and molest one of the kids???? then you would be crying that the police are not doing enough to protect the children!

    And they are doing anything?? They are activly and knowingly soliciting MINORS(under age kids) poetentially your 12, 13, 14 year old child into meeting up for SEX. Come on give me a break

    And if they are a vigilante group as you so call mention, then why do they have over 90, convictions, adn over 200 cases still in court proceedings. Give me a break, You would think that you would want to stop these predators BEFORE they got to your child. But you have it bassackwards!

    Do your research, and get your facts staright before you draw conclusions….

    By your article it sounds like Murphy lawmakers are encouraging preadators to come in, because they will not permit anymore stings! Dateline has done several of these shows, and hasn’t had a prob yet

  • disinter

    What happens if they were to come into the city and molest one of the kids????

    At that point, they would have actually committed a crime. THEN they should be arrested. These people didn’t violate anyone’s rights.

  • Stephen VanDyke

    I think the stings are a great thing. The subject is always knowingly meeting with an underage kid and the transcripts often show that they spoke about sex a lot.

    I think it’s funny that the citizens are mad that they’re getting them off the street by bringing them to their street for the sting. Seems like they’d want to put the NIMBY attitude on hold here.

  • Stephen VanDyke

    If anything Murphy, TX might gain notoriety for being extremely unfriendly to pedophiles. Hard to see how the residents could get pissed off about that.

  • you know me

    no it IS a crime to even try to talk to an underage child online for the purpose, and intent of having sex with. That is a crime. Not just the act of meeting a child for sex. I would suggest you read up on the laws, before you run your mouth!

  • disinter

    I think the stings are a great thing. The subject is always knowingly meeting with an underage kid and the transcripts often show that they spoke about sex a lot.

    Whose rights were violated?

    So if I arrange to meet a pot smoker, whom I have discussed smoking pot with on the internet, I am automatically guilty of smoking pot?

  • disinter

    no it IS a crime to even try to talk to an underage child online for the purpose, and intent of having sex with. That is a crime. Not just the act of meeting a child for sex. I would suggest you read up on the laws, before you run your mouth!

    If there was a law making all black people slaves, would that make the law right?

  • you know me

    Two seperate laws there. The child predator laws are completly different. With the pot laws, you could be charged with INTENT TO PURCHASE. With the child predator laws, talking to children online about sex, you can and more then likely will be charged with SOLICITING A MINOR FOR IMMORAL PURPOSES.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I did not call them a vigilante group- the Murphy mayor did.
    As for arresting somebody before they commit a crime- that sounds like a movie I saw a couple years ago. Minority Report- you know, the Tom Cruise film. (Though I do state clearly in the post that it is indeed a crime in TX to have an inappropriate chat session with a child)
    I would never protect somebody who harmed a child and if you really knew me, you would know that.
    I would not want a potential predator on my street when my daughter got off the school bus. So, SVD, the in my backyard thing is an issue for me.

  • disinter

    I love it when they use “immoral” in their arguments….

  • you know me

    But thats the thing they DID commit a crime!!!! They solicited a MINOR for sexual purposes! That is a crime in itself.

  • disinter

    Again, whose rights were violated?

  • disinter

    I guess it is Libertarian to prosecute victim-less crimes now… it must be the Retard Caucus at work….

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Interesting takes on Perverted Justice can be found here, here, here, here, here.

    I would give you more, but frankly I am tired.

  • Michelle Shinghal
  • Malona

    THE TRUTH behind perverted-justice can be found at

    CORRUPTED-JUSTICE.COM

    ???Can you handle the TRUTH???

  • Michael Hampton

    Great. Then they should be able to produce the minor in court.

    If you charge someone for soliciting sex with a minor, then the person you solicited should be a minor. Otherwise it’s nothing more than a fantasy.

    And I must object in the strongest possible terms to locking people up for their fantasies. (Lest you be locked up for your fantasies.)

  • Just Ice

    So here we have a Mayor that publicly states there will be no more child sex stings in his town. What do you think the predators will think from now on when they are chatting with a kid from Murphey? Will predators seek out Murphey children now because they feel a sense of security based on the mayor’s declarations?

    The mayor is just making sound bites. Many of the predators caught in this sting were from Murphey. The sting doesn’t “attract” predators, they already exist in his town, and apparently he’d rather stick his head in the sand and let predators target children in his town.

    Thought crime? These predators took it a mile past “thought”. They activily solicited a child and most took steps to meet for sex (or worse). No one would have known their “thoughts” if they hadn’t broadcast their criminal ideas over the internet, across countless servers. The first thing was a “thought”, these guys put a plan into action.

  • Volcano

    Interesting that the co-founder of perverted justice is a self-styled libertarian and is running for vice-president in 2016 as partner of p-j lead tech Phoebus Apollo, they even have their website set up. These guys are loons, check them out here:

    http://www.namyth.com/2016/

    They also get paid over $100K per episode of Dateline, after Von Erck originally said he’d never take donations or accept monies for what they do…

  • Michelle Shinghal

    JustIce- please look at your own website, http://www.pervertedjustice.com. (I invite everyone else to do the same.) Only one of the “predators” came from Murphy. You guys listed them all right on the main page. The least you can (attempt to) do is be factually correct when you comment here.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    And I believe the Mayor indicated that there would be no future Dateline/Perverted Justice stings. He hardly said that Murphy would let predators run amok. See for yourself-I quoted him in the body of the post and even provided the source in the link.

  • SanchoPanza

    Michelle check your YIM I sent you an add, would like to talk plz.

  • Lim

    The safety of children trumps the so-called absolute rights (as libertarians believe) of adults. NAMBLA is disgusting. Adults soliciting or actually participating in sex acts with children should be arrested and prosecuted.

    The prosecutor did the right thing when he blew his own brains out.

    When we begin sacrificing the welfare of children in the name of freedom, what next?

  • Volcano

    Lim, the site owner of P J says himself, often, that P Js mission is NOT to protect children. Hes also on record as saying he doesn’t even LIKE kids and doesn’t want them around.

    Their effort is NOT to protect children, it’s to capitalize on a true and growing problem, lining their pockets with NBC money, while at the same time gaining noteriety and fame. It’s NOT about the kids, according to Von Erck himself.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I looked up Volcano’s claim and found this:

    PeeJ Facts:
    The U.S. Department of Health and Human services estimates that 93,000 children were sexually abused in this country in 1999 alone.

    An interesting perspective on statistics can be found here. The whole article is good, but it specifically states that most sexual abuse takes place at the hands of a family member. (pg 24 of 52) In the case of Megan’s Law (the law being reviewed) there was no distiction between familial and nonfamilial abuse. I have researched this because of a post I nearly have ready to go, and it seems that this kind of statistical blurring is common.

  • Paul Pace

    Once they get into the realm of actually chatting online with someone they think is 13 and setting up a date, I think they’ve gone beyond the realm of “thoughts inside a person’s head”. You’ve entered the realm of people actually acting on those thoughts. And I say take em down.

    The only thing that would concern me is if it were some kind of entrapment. Who initiates the contact in these stings?

  • Volcano

    Michelle I’m a bit confused by your post. Which claim of mine are you talking about?

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Volcano:

    Lim, the site owner of P J says himself, often, that P Js mission is NOT to protect children.

    I went to find the mission on their site, and found an additional piece of info that I found interesting. Sorry- I should have been clear that I was not arguing your point. I was bringing up a new one.

  • Volcano

    Ok Michelle, I understand now. The comments I am attributing to Von Erck about PJs mission can be found on his blog, and in many places on their forums.

    Few of their volunteers outside their staff know this, as they use the guise of “child protection” as the emotional hook to get ppl to volunteer for them and donate.

    They also have 50-100 “Human Shields” who are basically just any old Joe off the street, going into chatrooms posing as underage kids. They chat up people who approach them, try to keep them chatting for as long as possible, then “twist” them by either quoting the law, identifying themselves as adult, or by other ways.

    All this does is cause the person to change his screen name and swap hard drives, and possibly ruining legit police stings that might also be going on. They have no way of knowing if their subject is also talking with real kids, or actual police.

    But, it’s a way to “hook” the public into actually thinking they’re helping.

  • Lim

    Post #26

    How can the statistic be accurate? Are the children asked if they have been sexually abused or are all abusers known and they answer the question?

    This statistic has to be one of those pulled out of the air with no merit. I personally believe child sexual abuse is much higher, I mean really higher than the posted.

    Sex with children is still taboo so I suspect a very well kept a secret by both parties for differing reasons and when a pedophile is identified, it is only the tip of the iceberg. This is certainly a sign of our morally decaying society ringing true of the Roman Empire.

    I have read posts here so am waiting for the jolts from the defenders of absolute personal freedom. I am prepared.

  • paulie

    Hey, how about that preacher who got busted having gay sex while on meth?

    Great segments on him on the John Stewart and Stephen Colbert shows last night/this morning.

    They also mentioned he was in that documentary about the Jesus Camp in North Dakota where they worship pictures of Bush (no, not playboy magazine).

    Also funny was the cartoon about midterm elections on the Stewart shows.

    BTW have you seen the HBO documentary hacking Democracy?

    Good stuff.

  • Murphy Police Supporter

    I would think the people of Murphy would be honored to have men like those in their police department and man like their city manager. Did you know that 11 of those arrested lived within 30 mins of Murphy with one person from the city of Murphy and several other from neighboring cities, minutes from Murphy? Sounds like this was a problem IN AN AROUND THEIR OWN COMMUNITY!!! Do people not see that? If either the city manager or police chief is fired, neither will have trouble finding another job. They will have one heck of an accomplishment to add to their resumes. The mayor and city council of Murphy should be ashamed. They are the ones who need to go.

  • http://www.moraloutrage.net Outrage

    Perverted-Justice IS a vigilante group plain and simple. While their FAQ states they do not condone harassment they willing post a link to IM individuals and they also provide their phone numbers. What “informational” purpose does that serve other than to harass??

    Regards,
    Outrage

  • Mike

    Nice you delete my post because it raised good points. I will repeat. 1 PREDATOR ARRESTED WAS FROM MURPHY. 2 OTHERS WERE FROM THE NEIGHBORING CITY OF PLANO. A TOTAL OF 11 were within a 30 minute drive or Murphy. Yes it is a problem in and around the community of Murphy. Both the city manager and the police chief deserve pats on the back for a job well done!!! If they get fired, they both will have one heck of an accomplishment to add to their resumes!!! Great Job to the Murphy Police Department!!! The residents of Murphy should be proud to live in a city where their police department takes initiative to stop child predators before they have their chance to strike.

    And also, this summer, a man was arrested in Murphy for perfroming sexual acts with a minor as a result of a traffic stop done by a Murphy police officer. Another man was arrested by Murphy police for sexual abuse involving a very young child. Two more things that prove that it is a problem in their community!!!

  • Volcano

    “Thought Crimes”

    Is it a thought crime to solicit a police officer who is posing as a prostitute?

    Is it a thought crime for someone to approach a police officr posing as a hired killer, to murder their spouse?

    Is it a thought crime for someone to buy drugs from an undercover police officer? Or sell them?

    This is the same thing. These subjects went beyond the realm of thought, and did actions.

  • http://ivorypower.com Josh

    Thanks for the commentor Michelle Shinghal who plugged my article

    I have another two
    Intro to “Corruptd Justice”
    http://ivorypower.com/blog/?p=443
    How to counter their “efforts”
    http://ivorypower.com/blog/?p=2075

    Feel free to write me

  • paulie

    Is it a thought crime to solicit a police officer who is posing as a prostitute? Is it a thought crime for someone to buy drugs from an undercover police officer? Or sell them?

    Uh…yeah. Not that the actions would be bad either, if you own your own body (that is – if you are not a slave) no one except you has the right to tell you what drugs you can or can’t put in it. Nor do they have the right to tell you that you can’t sell it for sexual use, or to use it for labor in another fashion and then dispose of the fruits of that labor to buy sex or drugs.

    To say that you can’t do these things is to say that you are property. To say that others can’t do them is to say they are your property.

    Me, I’m for abolishing slavery.

  • Pingback: Ivory Power » Blog Archive » Thanks Michelle!

  • http://www.codemonkeyramblings.com MikeT

    I have no problem with the police going into a chat room or IRC channel and pretending to be 12 year old jail bait for people to hit on. I have a real problem with “Perverted Justice,” though. They’re not cops and they’re doing the equivalent of hanging someone in public. It’s nothing more than emotional masturbation and a two minute hate, rather than a routine law enforcement operation. They are just a bunch of vigilantes.

  • Volcano

    Paulie I’m sorry you’re an anacrhist. But we have laws on the books, that are enforced. I also note in passing you either ignored or dismissed the murder for hire part of my post.

    Is that a “thought crime?”

  • Paul Pace

    Well obviously most of us are Libertarians and have nothing against prostitution or drug use.

    Obviously we are against murder, which is why he couldn’t respond to that part.

    Paulie’s premise was incorrect, however. I agree with you that these actions are well beyond the realm of thought crimes, obviously. I don’t agree with the current prostitution and drug laws, but obviously it isn’t a thought crime to actually try and purchase such services. I definitely DO agree with most child protection laws, and to me it is quite clear that trying to solicit sex from someone you percieve to be 12 or 13 is a REAL crime with real criminal intent. Those people need to be put in jail.

    Is “Perverted Justice” vigilantism? Yes. Yes it is. Personally I have no problem with vigilantism as long as it is done within the bounds of the law, however. I thought Libertarians are in favor of private citizens enforcing laws if they need to.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    I have seen some debate about whether PJ’s activism. There seems to be something wrong with contacting a person’s employer and family for the purpose of public shaming. I am all for shaming if a person has been rightly tried and convicted. I am not an expert on Perverted Justice though and concede that I am unfamiliar with their actual vetting processes.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    obviously, my first sentence there is incomplete but you get the idea i am sure

  • Getreal

    The person being stung does not have to actually meet anyone. The man who killed himself had made no actual attempt to meet. Many chat groups have people who play roles. Not everyone there is 19 and busty or has a swimmers build and 8 inches. That is widely known. Often people pretend. So an adult goes in and pretends to be a teen to relive some aspect of his youth for instance. Now if there was no child being solicited how can this be soliciting a child? It makes no sense. The people who do these stings are vile. Soliciting an actual child is one thing. Solicitng a adult pretending to be a child is another. If I point my finger and go “bang” I have not pointed a real gun. It was fake. Should I be arrested for threatening you with a deadly weapon for pointing my finger?

  • beaker

    Curious Volcano,

    Speaking of thought crimes you do pull a couple good examples but what you are missing is intent. If I say I am going to rob a bank or hire someone to kill another, it is just a thought. But if I provide physical help in the form of plans or cash to facilitate those plans then I have established intent. Simply because certain laws are on the books doesn’t mean they are just laws. Do you always believe what you read is just?

  • beaker

    Forgot to add that if someone talks about sex and does not follow through on the act then it is not a crime. If they talked about sex and the guy showed up then that proves intent. Otherwise it is just chatter, sick chatter but chatter nonetheless. And PJ has always been a bit suspicious. It makes me wonder and worry very much.

  • Tom Bryant

    The proper libertarian take on Perverted Justice should be how much more efficient a private effort is when compared to the local police department.

    Let’s suppose that I hired you to kill my wife, and told you to sneak into the bedroom and shoot her in bed. If you take the money, sneak into my house, and shoot a life-like dummy that you believed was my wife laying in bed, you should be tried for conspiracy to commit murder.

    Same thing if you break into a bank and find the vault empty and a camera crew behind you yelling “Surprise!”.

  • http://ivorypower.com Josh

    Ask yourself this question : WHEN do we need undercovers and decoys to catch criminals? When it’s a VICTIMLESS CRIME, when BOTH SIDES must be consensual to it. Prostitution, drugs, sodomy, seduction, adultery, suicide, …etc.

    Nobody uses undercover liars to catch murderers or robbers, they’re outright wrong and only conspirators keep mouths shut.

    Undercover liars are technically equally responsible for the CRIME, if they so act like the criminal who is ABOUT to commit the crime. Why is it ok to bait a bad guy but not arrest the undercover liar?

  • you know me

    No Ask youself this question:

    What are we to do when law enforcement does not have the time or resources to take down theses sick predators????

    The answer is, If I could do something to help my local kids stay safe, and prevent these predators from accessing them I would and am.

    Keep in mind more and more law enforcement have begun to start working with PJ, and it is only because PJ took the cause into their own hands… We have several hundred information-sharing agreements with agencies from local police to the Department of Homeland Security.. I am very glad that PJ is around, and if we are to be angry about anything its that the Mayor of Murphy would much rather save face, then deal with an ongoing problem happening EVERYWHERE. Not just in Murphy, but in Trenton, denver, and all over the country!

    You want to be angry with someone, start writing letters to the mayor of Murphy to let him know that him trying to save face, at the expense of children is NOT acceptable.

  • you know me

    And just so you know. PJ does NOT initiate any of these conversations. The predator always contacts PJ first, so it is NOT entrapment….

  • paulie

    Paulie I’m sorry you’re an anacrhist.

    Don’t be sorry I’m an anarchist. If you want to be sorry, be sorry that you support making other people (and perhaps yourself) regime property.

    And who said I had to address your whole post? I addressed the part I took issue with.

    Do you support drug and prostitution laws? If so, on what basis?

  • paulie

    I don’t agree with the current prostitution and drug laws, but obviously it isn’t a thought crime to actually try and purchase such services.

    It’s not? Then why is it “illegal” to sell, or attempt to buy, *imitation* “illegal” drugs?

    Why is it illegal to manufacture a brand new chemical, which has never been outlawed, but which has psychotropic effects similar to “illegal” drugs?

    I can’t remember if this one was ever overturned, but it might be “illegal” to peddle *simulated* child pornography (created with electronic image manipulation and/or unusually young-looking adults).

    I would call these thought crimes. What would you call them?

  • http://ivorypower.com Josh

    I’ll answer your question : If law enforcement doesn’t have time and resources to track down perverts, they have their priorities messed up. What about time and resources for parents to be parents?

    Law enforcement has more interest in drugs, prostitution, speeding, parking, soliticiting, hate speech, thought crimes. Not murder, rape, robbery, burglary

  • Tom Bryant

    The whole self-ownership/natural rights model falls apart when dealing with children. It’s one thing for an adult to consent to being seduced online and a different thing for a child to be seduced online. In the former, I agree that it is victimless, in the latter, I believe there is a victim.

    The intent of a person is a very important piece in prosecuting people, and has been so for centuries. It is government’s job to protect me not just from those who have killed me, but also those who intend to kill me. Likewise for people who intend to rob me or rape me. The intent is more important than the action.

    And please note the difference between thought and intent. It’s one thing to think about having sex with children, and another to arrange a meeting place with a child and show up there for the purpose of having sex. One is a crime-free thought, and the other criminal intent.

  • http://ivorypower.com Josh

    Tom : Intent is more than the action? You’re NUTS!

    I read the update from the anonymous group Michelle mentioned and understand that they don’t waste time unless it’s serious. EVEN SO, why can’t they just let the person off with a warning online “DON’T WASTE YOUR TIME, WE’RE WATCHING YOU” or when they catch him, give him a break (if not a blackmail threat).

    In any case, I insist that undercover decoying is essentially no different than entrapment, fraud, co-conspiring and persecution of thought crime.

  • Volcano

    Josh —

    Is it ALL criminals who are caught, or just the child predators that you want to see “let off” with a warning? You think warnings work? You truly think online predators who line up children for sexual assault meetings are comitting a “victimless crime?”

    Beaker — Do you have a reading disability? Read my post again, post #36, and tell me where I left out the ACTIONS that spell intent.

    Clearly there’s a general lack of understanding of the internet child predator problem. According to cybertipline.org, the national center for missing and exploited children, there are 50,000 of these predators online at any given moment, trolling the internet for kids.

    Think about that number, then think about how small in comparison law enforcement dedicated to fighting this crime wave is. Few, but a growing number of, police departments have the funding, manpower, training or equipment necessary to even attempt to enforce these laws. >>>> Contunues below >>>>

  • Volcano

    >>>> This is why help from private citizens is necessary and often welcomed by police. Because they are BEHIND THE CURVE in this NEW era of internet crime. The criminals are MILES AHEAD both in numbers, technology, and know-how.

    Groups like PJ help close this gap, help curb this crime while at the same time shining light on it.

    The internet is ours, and as citizens of it we all have as much right to patrol it as we do our own streets and neighborhoods. In fact, we have a duty to do so. Police departments all over the country need the help of citizens to combat this problem. They need parents to be responsible denizens of the internet by carefully monitoring their kids, they need organizations like PJ to teach them and help them catch these child molesters.

    To think that internet child predators isn’t your problem is ridiculous. Of course it is.

  • Tom Bryant

    Josh,

    Look up the term “mens rea”, which is a basis in our system of law, and has been for centuries. I’m not nuts, I’m just educated =)

    You may have heard of something called “attempted murder”. No one died, and in fact, no one needs to be hurt for this to occur. If you intend to murder someone but fail (gun jams, etc), there is still a crime committed. If someone intends to kill, it is the job of government to stop that before the murder takes place.

    You’ll also notice this concept applied in cases of assault. Assault occurs as soon as I raise my fist to strike you. If I don’t strike you, I have still committed a crime because the intent was there.

    These are all very old concepts that have worked for centuries.

  • Paul Pace

    If a guy breaks into a bank vault to find it empty, should he be charged with attempted robbery or just breaking and entering?

    If a guy sneaks into a house and shoots a dummy in the dark, thinking it is a person, is he guilty of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, or just breaking and entering?

    Likewise if a guy tries to arrange for sex with a 13 year old, and shows up to engage with sex, but there is no 13 year old, is he guilty of something? I say yes. Is it possible he was acting out fantasy and did not believe the person to be 13? Yes, and the burden of proof is on the state to show that he wasn’t, but there’s a much higher chance this person was a child predator.

    Other such stings such as drug deals, prostitution stings, etcetera do happen to be victimless crimes between two consenting parties in the vast majority of stings I can think of. But when it comes to soliciting sex from kids, it’s one consenting adult and one child who does not have the ability to consent.

  • paulie

    True in the case of very young children, but think back on when you were say 16 or 17 – did you know who you wanted to have sex with and who you didn’t?