Cheech and Chong on the Immigration Issue

“I have to tell you that we are facing a situation, where if we don’t control immigration, legal and illegal, we will eventually reach the point where it won’t be what kind of a nation we are, balkanized or united, we will actually have to face the fact that we are no longer a nation at all.” — Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO)

Is Tancredo really afraid of white children dating someone named Juanita or having a “son-in-law named” Pablo? In contrast, here’s a YouTube of Steve Kubby’s old roommate’s approach to immigration issues:

posted by Stephen Gordon
  • paulie

    Steve Kubby’s old roommate’s approach to immigration issues

    Cheech or Chong?

    BTW, Kubby’s running for President. I hope he gets the nomination.

    http://kubby.com/

  • http://thatsridonkulous.blogspot.com/ Rob D.
  • Timothy West

    “ill be waitin with balls on”. :D

  • paulie

    Well, better on than off

  • http://www.freetalklive.com Slim

    I think Tommy Chong would be a great Secretary of the Interior for the first Libertarian president.

  • paulie

    How about – ONDCP? You know, the Drug Czar. Or perhaps DEA or FDA?

  • http://lp.org Stephen Gordon

    Rob:

    Cheech.

    1 – I called Kubby for verification

    2 – link here: http://cannabis.net/articles/drugwar-refugees.html

  • http://thatsridonkulous.blogspot.com/ Rob D.

    My fault for assuming that. I was scrolling through Kubby’s site and saw that pic. Plus I remember Cheech being in some cop sitcom. It’s hard to tell where the hell these celebrities stand politically.

    If they’d accept of course, I’d have Tommy Chong be Doug Stanhope’s secretary of defense. Drop burning bushes of some prime chiba all over our enemies. Foreign tentions all over the world solved almost immediately.

    Have cheech pull in the latin vote. We got the white house.

  • undercover_anarchist

    Immigration is THE issue of our generation.

    Curse the Libertarian Party and its right-wing members for abandoning libertarian principals.

    Open and free immigration is a natural, human right. If you are for ‘states rights,’ you are a Wallace-Democrat. States do not have rights. They don’t even have the right to exist. Only human beings have rights, and yes, they have rights even if they don’t speak the Queen’s language.

    1000 curses on anyone who opposes the human right of free movement. Eternal praise to all libertarian and other leaders who stand in the face of the racist, “populist” opposition to free immigration.

  • Timothy West

    immigration is the “issue” chosen by Republicans and Democrats to advance a distraction in hopes that much larger issues they are responsible for will not become issues. :)

    The “Immigration issue” just appeared upon my TV screen out of nowhere some months ago, with no news story to match it. It literally appeared out of thin air. Anytime that happens, some fucker is pulling strings on a puppet(s) to make it happen. The news media is so consolidated ( only 5 networks worldwide not owned by another network or media presence ) that unlike 9/11, a inside job is not hard to believe for me.

    This has been going on for the last 25 to 30 years, and it’s never even remotely been the focus of american politics until now. My guess: they want to have an excuse for even clamping down harder on mobility for citizens and immigrants alike in the next few years – including political cover for the new National ID card you will surrender upon demand ( YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE) within 2 1/2 years.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Let me correct myself: Opposition to immigration is THE issue of our generation. Immigrants’ rights is THE civil rights issue of our generation. 500,000 people demonstrating for human rights in the streets of America’s largest cities is not a manufactured issue by the D’s, R’s, or media.

    Opposition to free immigration is not only racist at its base, its Marxist as well. It requires acceptance of some “collective” property of the state. If an “illegal” immigrant trespasses on YOUR property, then the issue is clear. An “illegal” coming over the state’s artificial and imaginary border to work for MY business is none of your business.

    There are legitimate security issues at hand, but those could be resolved much easier by advancing free immigration. Then, any who would subvert the legal channels would clearly be suspect. Knappster has laid it all out on his site.

  • Michael H. Wilson

    Personally I think we ought to look at this from a different angle. While I am in the boat with undercover-anarchist I’m more interested in looking at how this no name Congress critter from Colorado, who knows damn well that they need immigrants to work the fields, made this into a national story and is no longer an unknown congresscritter. Look at how he worked this up until it was front page stuff in virtually every paper and on all the video news. Tancredo mastered in Public Relations somehwere and has now passed his biggest test.
    I have to wonder what nationality Tancredo is?
    M.H.W.

  • paulie

    As with all government oppressors, he is of the anti-human race.

  • Paul Pace

    I’m for open immigration, giving anyone who wants to come a green card after a quick background check.

    But the borders do need to be secure. I’m not worried about some guy who wants a better life sneaking over. Until we change the law to allow him to come over easily and legally, good for him for making it over and circumventing the federal government. Welcome to the land of the free. I am worried about terrorists potentially using our weak border security against us, however.

    We have to make it difficult to get across the border without us knowing. At the same time we have to make it easy for anyone who wants to come to this country to get in safely. I can’t accept either/or on that, I want both.

  • paulie

    Worried about terrorists? they’re already here. And they run the government. As for background checks….how would you feel about having to submit to one every time you crossed the street? It’s a border after all – a property line. At least a real property line, unlike the phony collective part-property ownership in the entire country by the regime which is implied in the concept of a national border. Oh, and feel free to run background checks on anyone who enters your property – as long as it’s really your property – but don’t be surprised if people stay away.

  • RedDave

    As long as our system provides free education, health care, and assorted other goods to anyone that walks in, we cannot have unrestricted immigration. I’m sure Mr. undercover_anarchist won’t mind being taxed even more to pay for the “human rights” of these people.

  • Terroja

    RedDave: As long as the immigrants paid taxes themselves, I don’t see how the burden would be any greater than it is now.

  • Michael H. Wilson

    The government has been throwing all kinds of stuff at drug smugglers for years without making much more than a dent, so given that evidence of the government’s ability to stop something before it gets here I kinda have doubts about their ability to stop terrorist, or whatever, or whomever wishes to get in. So basically we change whatever we, that be the g-men, are doing, or bend over and kiss our ass good-bye.
    M.H.W.

  • Jeremiah

    Do we actually need anyone else in this fucked up country? Cheap labor is just todays word for slavery. Are we just supposed to take ALL the worlds poor(or anyone for that matter) and have them clog up our nation to where we have to walk sideways to get somewhere? Its already bad enough. Who here, that is for illegal immigration(“open borders”), has actually seen the problems that it causes? Are we supposed to make it legal for anyone to come here as they please and refuse their schooling, health care, and government protection? So, really… they can come here and WORK(exploit), but they have no rights… they will be sick, uneducated, criminals… Do we really want this to happen to America?? Call it what you want, but think logically about what will really happen to America if it is truely OPEN borders. OR do we just make it easier to become “American” to people that could give a shit about Freedom, learning English, etc… seriously, what would happen to America? cont….

  • Jeremiah

    NO WONDER why Libertarians dont win shit…… dont be so Idealistic that you stop be realistic/logical. We are NEVER going to live in a perfect Libertarian society… there are too many people/cultures/etc… too much brainwashing from our great education system/media. Can we try to just move in a libertarian direction without getting “the perfect libertarian society” over night(which wont happen)?

  • Jeremiah

    I think George Phillies has a little common sense:

    http://www.phillies2008.com/phillies_on_immigration

  • paulie

    Common nonsense is more like it.

    Phillies)However, Americans are entitled to the certainty that their country’s just laws will be enforced until those laws are changed.

    paul) Those are not just laws.

    Phillies)Americans who quote the Statue of Liberty’s message ‘Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free’ should remember that it was written when France, Germany and Russia were autocratic monarchies. The huddled masses of Europe now breathe free.

    paul) For starters, I’m not so sure that the masses of Europe are free, but if they, so what? What of the rest of the world? Is Phillies a white supremacist?

    Phillies)When Americans want open borders, they will tell Congress to vote for open borders.

    paul) Since when do libertarian principles depend on majoritarianism?

  • paulie

    Phillies) Until then, a Libertarian President who has sworn to protect and defend the Constitution will protect and defend the laws on border crossings.

    paul) Not that it matters much, but the constitution grants the regime no such power. The portion that has been interpreted to say it does actually was written in regards to the slave trade. No one thought to apply it to immigration until much later.

    Phillies) George Bush has created many enemies for America. Keeping them from coming here to injure our children and grandchildren must remain a top-priority issue for the foreseeable future.

    paul) Bush is himself the greatest enemy of America. He hates us for our freedom, and that is why he bombed the twin towers. The regime can no more keep “illegal” immigrants out than it can keep “illegal” drugs out.

  • paulie

    Phillies)Foreign Workers – All too often, we hear claims that we must import foreign workers because Americans won’t do those jobs. ‘Those jobs’ are hard, physically demanding, outdoor work that require constant, careful attention to detail. Those jobs should be receiving a wage premium, not be barely-minimum-wage sources of employment. If those jobs paid that premium, there would be Americans available to do them. Mr. Bush’s foreign guest worker scheme is a corporate welfare deal at the expense of the American worker.

    paul) How about the American consumer? Mr Phillies’ border control scheme is a labor welfare deal at the expense of the
    American consumer, which hurts American workers in the long run.

    Professors Phillies knows physics, but apparently not economics.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    RedDave: The welfare state can be used as an excuse by budding fascists like yourself to deny any and all human rights and liberties. It’s a false choice. It’s like saying, “until we get rid of the welfare state, we need to sterilize all people to prevnent them from having children.”

    Do you believe in the free market or not? How can you be for more government, government to curb the free market in the name of the free market?

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Cheap laor = slavery?

    No.

    Cheap labor = the free market.

    The opposite is a Marxsist, nationalist proposition. “Let’s let the government erect artificial barriers and price controls to make sure that (white) Americans can make more money than they deserve – since they’ll need it with the prices of products artificially boosted due to the overpaid labor.”

    Stupid shit.

    And to the guy who said “have you seen the effects of illegal immigration?”

    Yeah. Cheap food. Affordable hotel rooms and restaruant meals. Innovation. Competition. Capitalism. Etc.

    Any and all serious, peer-reviewed studies show that open immigration benefits our economy. The only argument against open immigration is a racist, nationalist argument that doesn’t deserve to be heard. Once, I respected Mr. Phillies. Now I’m sure that he’ll be broken-hearted to find out thatI no longer do. His racist, economically ignorant platform is no better than the American Talib ideaology of the CP.

    Free movement is a human right

  • Jeremiah

    Just like slavery was the “free market”?

    Overpaid labor? Who? You mean if people get paid more then prices will go up?… is that like when people who get fired from decent jobs(that go overseas and go to illegals) work at jobs like Walmart and get paid less, prices go down?

    The question is, do we want America to be a model of open border “libertarianism” and become a nomadic piece of land where most people just come to get paid, but have no pride in it(think “renters”)…. OR an actual country(with an “imaginary border” says undercover anarchist) that many Americans died for during the Revolution? Is your home an “imaginary border”?

    So, an Anarchist state will be better?… Still only the rich will control the masses. We are cheap labor, remember?

    Paulie, so you want to free the whole World?… You mean like Iraq? Are our men and women supposed to go to every oppressed country and fight/die for their freedom? Can it be like the War on Drugs?

  • Jeremiah

    If Americans cant get complete freedom, then how can we free the World??

    So, the positives of illegal immigration is a cheap room and cheap food?

    The negatives are overcrowding(adds traffic), crime, English no longer being the first language, hospitals closing, schools falling apart,…
    yes, the end of “America” as we know it. Why even be a country if we are going to have open borders? If the borders are imaginary?
    “Come and stay if you please, shit on my lawn if you want…. its a free country.” Why even care about 9-11 with that mindset? Its their
    problem, right? We are just a plot of land for “free trade.” As long as we can make more money, right? Thats what it is all about.

    Some people worship Capitalism like it can do no wrong, Yes, it brought many good things to our lives, but there are also many horrible things.
    Pollution, urban sprawl/overcrowding, our great education system(formed by the Capitalists, and run by the Government that is controlled by the
    Capitalists), a consumer society(that can care less about Freedom), wars(thanks to Big Oil), Republicans and Democrats are the biggest Capitalists
    of them all……

    http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00008072&cycle=2004

    http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00000245&cycle=2004

    Must read article – ‘A Libertarian Argument Against Opening Borders’
    http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_3.pdf

  • Jeremiah
  • kcjerith

    Jeremiah, part of having an open borders policy that would work in the usa is that the schools, hospitals would be privatly run, so if the immigrants could pay (like anyone else) then more power to them. In a libertarian socity schools and hosptials would not close or fall apart.

    Your worried about english not being the primary langauge in usa? Ummm, in a free country you can say what you please (this includes the freedom to pick what language you say it in). And no one has the right to shit on private property.

    What is most disturbing is your illogical rant against cpatalism. Urban sprawl was caused by the creation of interstate highway system (a socalist type policy).

    As for your comments about pollution i would go to the laissez faire books (might also check the LP site). You can order several books that will expalin to intresting facts. First government intervention have caused the majority of enviromental damage, starting largly with Thedore Rosevelt and (cont)

  • kcjerith

    (cont) that captalism has often done an exllenct job at protecting resources.

    Our education system formed by captalist? really? our current education system has failed because it is run by the gov.

    captilist caused the war in Iraq. First lets get this myth out of the way. big oil is a socialist run business. It is run and conncected directly to the government. That is they exact opposite of capitalism. The fact that a war is being fought (in part) on behalf of a company is proof of this

    Republicans and Democrats are the biggest capitalist? Jermiah, please set the crack pipe down and walk away. That is abusrd and not even worth rebutting.

  • Jeremiah

    Exactly, illegal immigrants couldnt pay for schools or their hospital bill. They are just cheap labor, remember? Then what?….

    Urban sprawl was created by the rich during the Industrial Revolution. The Industrial Revoltution also gave us our dense populations and other wonderful things.
    http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-234527

    So, the government created all of our factories and vehicles?… the greatest causes of our pollution?

    “It was the industrial revolution that gave birth to environmental pollution as we know it today.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution

  • kcjerith

    If immigrants can’t pay for schools or hospitals, then guess what, they can’t use them (unless a charity hooks them up!). I am not sure i see a problem with this. Besides they wouldn’t came here (and through all the hassle that takes) if it was not worth it.

    The article you site reall refers to dense populations in cities and not urban sprawl. yes, this article is right to say that new cities did form as farmers moved, however urban sprwal is much a diffrent problem.

    And despite all your talk about captalism causing pollution. Lets look at the facts, has the the avearge life span of a person gone up or down since the industrial revoulution?up! (duh) Has the qualtiy of life gone up or down? has the standard of living gone up or down? has the amount of leisure time gone up or down? Infant/child mortality gone up or down? I think you know the anwser. yes pollution is bad, yes factories and techonlogy are part of to blame, but the overall benfit has been worth the probelms. Before (cont

  • kcjerith

    (cont) the industrial revoulution chance are you would have died before you hit two years old. To parapharse Ayn Rand “every time you see a smoke stack you should hug it”

    And primative socites had horriable envimnnetal problems. many preindusrtial cities had horriable diesase rates. The carnary islands ( a tribal socalist goverment)basically wiped themselves out without any help from the industial revoulution. Any time primative man spread to a new continet (america being a prime example). they wiped out (in mass0 most large species that lived their. Wikapedia needs to gets it head out of its ass and do some fact checking.

  • Timothy West

    if immigrants can’t pay for schools or hospitals, then guess what, they can’t use them (unless a charity hooks them up!).

    under law no person can be refused medical care in any emergency room in the US, citizen or not. They have to be seen by doctors and given treatment. The only “charity” involved is you, becuase you have to subsidize the costs involved.

  • Jeremiah

    So, Michael J. Boskin, who is on Exxon’s Board is wrong or lying when he praises Capitalism here:
    http://www.hooverdigest.org/994/boskin2.html

  • kcjerith

    Yes I know that Timothy. In a libertarin society those laws would be changed. The open borders policy only works if no one is forced to pay for illegal

  • kcjerith

    Lying about what? he anazyis about captalsim is appears to be right (I didn’t go over it in great detail with it being after five in the morning in kansas). I do find him a bit hypocritical, the oil comapnies are the first ones to line up for free handouts. Of course they also have to put up with very tough regulations when it comes to drilling and processing.

  • Michael H. Wilson

    Question for all. What role does the U.S. agricultural
    policy play in all this? We have heavily subsidized corn
    to the point that we produce way too much of it and now under NAFTA we have been exporting it to Mexico and our exports have been undermining their agriculture forcing their farmers off their lands and leaving many of them unemployed and looking for work. Maybe those same exfarm workers are migrating north in search of jobs.
    Whadda ya think?
    M.H.W.

  • Jeremiah

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/Anti-capitalism_color.gif

    Stop treating libertarianism and capitalism like a religion, like it has no flaws(and you have to follow it to a T or you are going to hell). We also have to look if these ideas will even work, or how they work, in todays real world. We dont live in Colonial America.

    Opening borders will create an overflow of millions of non English speaking peoples(do they have diseases? are they murders?, criminals?, extremely poor?, etc). They will have no pride or desire to make America better and it will become the nomadic “country” that I stated earlier. What will happen to “libertarian” America in this case? Do you keep the “crazies” out? Then it is not an open border and you are stopping “free movement”.

    Also, to those of you that are pro illegal immigration… are you anywhere close to a “border state”? If not, you do not have ANY IDEA of the problems that it causes and of the consequences of an open border.

  • kcjerith

    Religion is based on faith. Libertariansim is based on reason. Captalism does cause issues, it is not perfect. However it is the best system we have for dealing having a society. Yes I live in Kansas, not a border state, however we have a large hispanic speaking population. I have also voluntered at a school that teaches imigrants english, so you can stop with the snotty attitude. They trvel right up I-35.

    I notice you keep referring to nonenlgish speaking people. What makes you think that everyone has to speak english? i country survived with periods of people speaking German, Dutch, English. Spanish speakers, not to sound cliche, add to our culture, and if you look at the economics take little aways (compared to what they get.

    Am i worried about them being poor, or dieased! I don’t mean to through this word around lightly, but do a sense a hint of xenophobia? No shit they are poor, that is why they come here, and they must do ok, because when we catch them and throw them out (cont)

  • kcjerith

    (cont)they comne right back. As for them being criminals or insane that is what a polic force is for, and from my understanding the vast majority who come over are here to work. You are right, if we would limit personel freedom it might make us a little safer (maybe). Isn’t that always the case? If you the big scarey immigrants frighten you might be best living in a box.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Jeremiah is a racist idiot who believes in white privelage and communism. it’s useless arguing with someone who hates freedom as much as he loves his white skin.

  • Andy

    “1000 curses on anyone who opposes the human right of free movement. Eternal praise to all libertarian and other leaders who stand in the face of the racist, “populist” opposition to free immigration.”

    I’d say 1,000 curses on naive fools who support tresspassing criminal racist (“La Raza”) welfare recipients. You are not supporting anarchism, you are supporting communism. The REAL anarchist are not for open borders (unless of course the owners of the land want open borders), they are for PRIVATE PROPERTY BORDERS. Acting like “open borders” is a libertarian position is not only moronic, it is dishonest. Any land that I own I sure as HELL do NOT want open borders on it. Acting like most people want open borders is completely absurd.

    This is all a part of the New World Order agenda. The New World Order crowd WANTS to flood the country with illegal aliens as a step towards achieving one world government.

  • Andy

    Well, well, well, what do we have here? A freakin’ COMMIE organized immigration rallies. Suprise, suprise…

    Immigration Rallies Tied To Marxist Organizer
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060410-094710-4817r.htm

  • Andy

    I’m sick & tired of hearing people who claim to be libertarians supporting – or at least playing into the hands of – the Council On Foreign Relations (CFR)/Bilderberg Group agenda. Are you people globalist plants, or just naive??? Don’t you see what the hell is going on her? Let me spell it out for you. The plan is to flood this country with as many illegal aliens as possible so they can merge the USA, Mexico, and Canada into the North American Union. This is the next step towards global government. They (meaning the globalists who control both the Democrats and the Republicans) want to lower our standard of living and dumb down society. They want to expand the welfare state. They want to create race riots so they can usher in martial law. This is all a part of a plan that has got NOTHING to do with freedom!

    CFR/Bilderberg Plan To Erase US Borders And Create A North American Union
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/210606cfrplan.ht

  • Andy

    The link above didn’t post so I’m posting it again.

    CFR/Bilderberg Plan To Erase US Borders And Create A North American Union
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/210606cfrplan.htm

    Some of you people out there must support the North Ameican Union. Let’s here it for one world government! The New World Order is good. NAFTA is really about free trade. The World Bank and IMF do good things. The United Nations is for world peace. Let’s not deny benifits for illegal aliens, that would be racist. Kill the gringo! Don’t fight back, that would be racially insensitve! This is about freedom, nobody is pulling the strings. Anyone who says otherwise is a kook or a racist, probably both!

  • Andy

    Some of you people should love Bush, since a PR firm connected with Bush and Vincente Fox organized the May 1st immigration rallies. Notice how they chose May 1st which is May Day, a communist holiday!

    Bushite Neo-Cons Responsible For May Day Immigration Protest
    http://www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/may_day_neocons_responsible_for_protests.htm

  • Andy

    Kill the gringo! Viva La Raza!

    Immigration Protests Cover For Racist Ethnic Cleansing
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/290306ethniccleansing.htm

  • paulie

    Group agenda. Are you people globalist plants,

    I’m a globalist mineral.

  • paulie

    J)Just like slavery was the “free market”?

    P) Slavery is coercion. Immigration is freedom of movement since the government’s border is illegitimate. For the regime’s border to be legitimate, you would have to grant that it has a property right to the whole country. But if that were true, you would have to give it all the property rights of an owner: collecting rent (taxes), regulating personal behavior (drugs, guns), etc. THAT would be slavery. By what right does the regime “own” the country?

  • paulie

    J) Overpaid labor? Who? You mean if people get paid more then prices will go up?”¦ is that like when people who get fired from decent jobs(that go overseas and go to illegals) work at jobs like Walmart and get paid less, prices go down?

    P) So you are for protectionism too? Apparently, you favor immigration controls as a form of protectionism – artificially propping up the wages of a select group of people. Whenever you do this, it can only hurt the economy. Imagine, for instance, if this principle were applied to states – or cities – or neighborhoods. Would you be better off if you were restricted in travelling and trading beyond a mile of where you live? How about just your own householdd forced to be completely self-sufficient; no outside jobs, no buying or selling anything. What do you think your living standard would be?

  • Andy

    Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas, Arlington; founder of La Raza Unida political party: “We have an aging white America. . . . They are dying. . . . They are ******** in their pants with fear! I love it!” “We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.”

    Isn’t this nice, a hispanic professor calling for the elimination of the gringo. Somebody ought to give this nice man an award. Let’s save him the trouble and kill ourselves!

  • paulie

    J)So, an Anarchist state will be better?”¦ Still only the rich will control the masses. We are cheap labor, remember?

    paul) Anarchism will be better, but no state. The regime doesn’t help the poor, it keeps them that way. Do away with limited liabiltity, corporate welfare, and taxes and regulations by the regime: this will hold business accountable for their actions while allowing the little guy to start a business and comepete against bigger business on a more level playing field. The economy will blossom and a rising tide will lifet all boats. To an inadequate extent, this was the way America used to do things, and that included massive immigration. There were xenophobes predicting dire consequences back then too.

  • paulie

    J)Paulie, so you want to free the whole World?”¦ You mean like Iraq? Are our men and women supposed to go to every oppressed country and fight/die for their freedom? Can it be like the War on Drugs

    paul) Huh? While I may want a free world, I don’t want to go around freeing it. Since I don’t want a government, and thus no mmilitary, how would I want them to invade foreign countries? Your question does not even begin to make sense. Neither does Phillies’ point that I was responding to. He seems to think that if Europe is free we should not worry about people yearning to breathe free by immigrating here; that indicates a strange preference for Europe which I can see no other explanation for than white supremacism. But I’ll await an alternative explanation.

  • Andy

    “P) So you are for protectionism too? Apparently, you favor immigration controls as a form of protectionism – artificially propping up the wages of a select group of people.”

    People can get away with paying immigrants below market wages because the immigrants can collect welfare benifits. Free education for their kids, free healthcare, free food stamps, etc…, all paid for by the tax payer. And of course their kids are usually kept out of the statistics since many of them are born here as “anchor babies” and are therefore considered to be American citizens.

    The US government controls most of the land in this country. I don’t like this but this is the situation that we live under. I pay for the upkeep of this land through whatever taxes I pay, as does everyone else. If our government ceased to exsist this land would be broken up and owned by a bunch of different people, most of whom would not want just anybody waltzing in whenever they feel like it.

  • paulie

    J)If Americans cant get complete freedom, then how can we free the World??

    P) You are chasing a scarecrow you yourself put up; no one said anything about freeing the world.

    If Americans cant get complete freedom, then how can we free the World??

    J) yes, the end of “America” as we know it. Why even be a country if we are going to have open borders? If the borders are imaginary?

    P) If by country you mean monopply government, I agree: get rid of it!

    J( “Come and stay if you please, shit on my lawn if you want”¦. its a free country.”

    P) I;m trying to understand what this is supposed to mean. If someone can cross an illegitimate border, that means they can shit on your lawn? So, you only have property rights if the government owns the whole country? But actually, if the government owns the whole country – which is the only way the concept of a border makes sense- that means you are at best a partial owner of your property – so they can shit on your lawn, or just rip it up.

  • Andy

    “paul) Anarchism will be better, but no state. The regime doesn’t help the poor, it keeps them that way. Do away with limited liabiltity, corporate welfare, and taxes and regulations by the regime: this will hold business accountable for their actions while allowing the little guy to start a business and comepete against bigger business on a more level playing field. The economy will blossom and a rising tide will lifet all boats. To an inadequate extent, this was the way America used to do things, and that included massive immigration. There were xenophobes predicting dire consequences back then too.”

    Massive immigration today has nothing to do with expanding freedom, it’s about expanding the state. Just like NAFTA, GATT, The WTO, and CAFTA have nothing to do with free trade.

  • paulie

    J) Why even care about 9-11 with that mindset? Its their
    problem, right?

    P) What the hell does that mean? I’m trying to understand, and I don’t see where any of that fits. Explain?

    J) Some people worship Capitalism like it can do no wrong, Yes, it brought many good things to our lives, but there are also many horrible things.
    Pollution,

    P) The biggest polluter is the government. The second biggest is corporations which are given limited liability by the government,so they are not responsible for their actions. The problem with poluution is a LACK of property rights, which results in a “tragedy of the commons”. To understand the relationship between government and pollution, take a look at a communist or ex-communist nation.

    J) urban sprawl/overcrowding,

    P) Make up your mind. Which is it? Are you for high or low density? Mandatory planning? Mandatory birth control?

  • paulie

    A)Massive immigration today has nothing to do with expanding freedom,

    P) So the people immigrating now are automatons with no free will? They are not seeking freedom or a better life as people in the past did when immigrating?

  • paulie

    J) Our great education system(formed by the Capitalists, and run by the Government that is controlled by the
    Capitalists),

    P) The education system was created by socialists and fascists. The government is controlled by same.

    J) a consumer society(that can care less about Freedom),

    P) Obviously, we would have more freedom if we restricted travel and trade, planned population and living patterns…right?

    J) wars(thanks to Big Oil),

    P) Communism and fascism would surely do away with wars. Oh wait….or we could go back further in history. Surely the crusades were caused by capitalism? How about tribal warfare?

    J) Republicans and Democrats are the biggest Capitalists
    of them all”¦”¦

    P) Because nothing could be more capitalistic than an organization created to win control of a monopoly regime which exists by and for the purpose of initiating coercion.

  • paulie

    J)“It was the industrial revolution that gave birth to environmental pollution as we know it today.”

    P) Clearly, the solution is to go back to the horse and buggy era by banning the technological changes that have taken place during and since the Industrial revolution. The resulting mass famine and disease would bring population down to an acceptable level.

  • Andy

    What is the Council On Foreign Relations’ solution to illegal immigration? Create a North American Union!

    CFR’s Solution For Illegal Immigration
    http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/july2006/130706CFR.htm

  • Andy

    “A)Massive immigration today has nothing to do with expanding freedom,

    P) So the people immigrating now are automatons with no free will? They are not seeking freedom or a better life as people in the past did when immigrating?”

    Seeking a better life at whose expense? The tax payers!

    I don’t think that every illegal alien is KNOWINGLY part of an agenda, but whether they realize it or not they are being used as “useful idiots” to further an agenda. That agenda is for world government and communism.

  • Andy

    Awww, look at all these nice illegal aliens destroying property, committing assults, and stabbing people.

    http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/may2006/040506violentinvasion.htm

  • Andy

    Here’s another part of the REAL agenda, martial law.

    http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/march2006/300306raceriots.htm

  • Andy

    Exposing The Real Racists In The Immigration Debate
    http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/may2006/030506realracists.htm

  • Andy

    “P) The education system was created by socialists and fascists. The government is controlled by same.”

    Who also happen to be the same people who are in favor of massive illegal immigration!

  • paulie

    And the same ones who are against it. While some of us who are for it being legal are nothing like that.

  • paulie

    Seeking a better life at whose expense? At the expense of hard work, generally. As for useful idits in a race riot/martial law agenda, anti-immigration protestors can be that too. The involvement of a few violent people and Marxists in mass demonstrations does not invalidate the whole purpose of the demonstrations; otherwise we can conclude that WTO is good because a few of the people who protest against it are not.

  • paulie

    A)The US government controls most of the land in this country. I don’t like this but this is the situation that we live under. I pay for the upkeep of this land through whatever taxes I pay, as does everyone else. If our government ceased to exsist this land would be broken up and owned by a bunch of different people, most of whom would not want just anybody waltzing in whenever they feel like it.

    p)Certainly not. You may exclude whoever you want from your personal property. Even if it’s based on “they don’t look like an Ameri-kin to me”. What I object to is the claim that you can exclude “non-Amerikins” from the whole country, including the property of those people who do welcome them. That implies a national property right which does not exist. As for property which is not legitimately owned, it can be homesteaded.

  • paulie

    People can get away with paying immigrants below market wages because the immigrants can collect welfare benifits.

    Actually, “illegal” immigrants are less likely to collect welfare benefits because a lot of times they are afraid of any government office. Also, many times theit wives and kids are back home. Not eeryone, of course. They often pay SS taxes which they can never collect. And don’t forget that the money paid in taxes to those benefits could instead be going to higher prices for goods and services which are made more expensive by artificially restricting the available supply of labor. Another alternative, if the market would not bear higher prices, is fewer goods and services available and more unemplyment because more companies have gone out of business – and then you would end up with just as many or more people on welfare.

  • http://www.myspace.com/undercover_anarchist undercover_anarchist

    Andy has every right in the world to defend the borders of his own property. He does NOT have the right to prevent me from opening my doors to migrant workers.

    Immigrants, illegal or not, receive less welfare benefits than non-immigrants.

    Immigrants, illegal or not, pay more in taxes than they recieve in benefits.

    Facts.

    Immigrants positively affect the economy – be it by 5% or 0.1% – no serious, peer reviewed academic study says anything differently.

    Opponents of immigration are racist, nationalist, statists.

    Another fact.

  • Jeremiah

    FACT
    “Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.”
    http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
    FACT
    “Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).”
    http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

  • kcjerith

    Yes Jeremiah, that is why we should end medicade, food assisatance, food stamps…etc. Again, open borders only work when people don’t have pay for each shit, and when the 99.999% of land is owned by private sector (people or compaanies). They you couldn’t cry about the “illegals” taking money.

  • Jeremiah

    Franklin, Benjamin (founding father)

    “The importation of foreigners into a country that has as many inhabitants as the present employments and provisions for subsistence will bear, will be in the end no increase of people, unless the new comers have more industry and frugality than the natives, and then they will provide more subsistence, and increase in the country; but they will gradually eat the natives out. Nor is it necessary to bring in foreigners to fill up any occasional vacancy in a country for such vacancy will soon be filled by natural generation.”
    (“Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind and the Peopling of Countries,” 1751)

  • Jeremiah

    Jefferson, Thomas – (founding father)

    “Yet from such [absolute monarchies], we are to expect the greatest number of emigrants. They will bring with them the principles of the governments they leave, imbibed in their early youth; or if able to throw them off, it will be in exchange for an unbounded licentiousness, passing as is usual, from one extreme to another. It would be a miracle were they to stop precisely at the point of temperate liberty. Their principles with their language, they will transmit to their children. In proportion to their numbers, they will share with us in the legislation. They will infuse into it their spirit, warp and bias its direction, and render it a heterogeneous, incoherent, distracted mass.”
    (“Notes on Virginia,” 1782)

  • kcjerith

    In fac the article you site says that the main differance between todays immigrants and theones during the late 1800’s early 1900’s, is that todays illegals use more federal aid than before. So, stop all of the fed programs and you shouldn’t have any problems.

  • kcjerith

    While a fan of jefferson (duh). The majority of that is just rhetoric. “eat the natives out”? END THE WELFARE state and all those problems will cease. Libertarin philosphy is a whole politcal theory.

  • Jeremiah

    How long would it take, after MANY years of even trying to get enough libertarians into office to make a difference, to transition a welfare system into a “libertarian” system? And transitioning to all private property? Has any government in the history of mankind ever achieved this? Maybe through much bloodshed.

    So, is it that we would wait 50 years to get our government in order before we opened the borders or is that what we should do now? What do we then do with the millions added to the welfare roles in the meantime? What happens with the millions that wont be able to afford health care, schooling, and food when the programs are gone?

    Opening borders seems like a good philosophy, but not a good policy. The government is there to protect us – Americans. If it is not protecting then why even have one at all? Those that you would not welcome in your house, why welcome them to our country?

  • kcjerith

    What should we do in the meantime? Look government backed wlefare is immoral, so is preventing people from entering the country. Let me get this right, becuase it will take a while to fix immoral polciy A, we should contunie to enforce immoral polciy B. If you are so worried about it taking 50 years to fix the welfare state then why are so worried about open borders? Do you think there is overwheming support for an open borders policy? No governemnt in history has a had a 100% private system. But that is what the LP is working for. Why the fuck are you a even a Libertarin (are you?).

    And we are not running out of food, health care or schooling. Even if your arguments are right, not one of them says the system is going to collaspe. And even if they did collapse the social system good! the nature of welfare systems is for them to collaspe under their own beruicratic/wastful/fradulant weight. Look at the europe for some examples. They are bound to fall apart anyway.

  • kcjerith

    wow, my spelling sux. My bad.

  • Andy

    “And the same ones who are against it. While some of us who are for it being legal are nothing like that.”

    I know that you are not the same as the globalist world government crowd, but you are playing into their hands.

  • Andy

    “Yes Jeremiah, that is why we should end medicade, food assisatance, food stamps”¦etc. Again, open borders only work when people don’t have pay for each shit, and when the 99.999% of land is owned by private sector (people or compaanies). They you couldn’t cry about the “illegals” taking money.”

    Comment by kcjerith ”” 2006-09-03 @ 7:28 pm

    You hit the correct! Of course such a system wouldn’t really be called “open borders” – perhaps calling it individual choice borders would be more accurate – but none the less your point is valid.

  • Andy

    “Seeking a better life at whose expense? At the expense of hard work, generally. As for useful idits in a race riot/martial law agenda, anti-immigration protestors can be that too. The involvement of a few violent people and Marxists in mass demonstrations does not invalidate the whole purpose of the demonstrations; otherwise we can conclude that WTO is good because a few of the people who protest against it are not.”

    I doubt that all illegal immigrants intend to live at the expense of others (ie-the tax payers), however, the fact of the matter is that many of them do.

    Yes, you are correct that a lot of the people at anti-illegal immigration protests are idiots too. Very few people in general see the big picture.

    I’m aware of the fact that there are Marxists who are involved in WTO protests, peace protests, Wal-Mart protests, Bush protests, etc… I agree with protesting all of the things that I just mentioned, but not necessarily for all of the same reasons that

  • Andy

    the Marxists would be there (although there is overlap in some cases). However, keep in mind that Marxists also protest a lot of things where I disagree with them, such as protests in favor of gun control laws (like the Million “Commie Mommies” March), protesting tax cuts, protesting Spending Limits initiatives (like those idiot scum bags who were blocking petitioners in various states recently), protesting getting rid of Affirmative Action, etc…

    I’m not opposed to all immigrants, some of them are fine people who are a benifit to society. However, most of these illegal alien protestors are low life scum.

    I think that the fact that there were Marxist operatives involved in these marches, and that one of the biggest – or perhaps the biggest – of these marches happened on May 1st, or May Day which is a COMMUNIST HOLIDAY, is quite distrubing. And it is even more disturbing when you look at who else was involved: a PR firm that’s connected with GW Bush and

  • Andy

    Vincente Fox, the Ford Foundation, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Council On Foreign Relations, the Bilderberg Group, etc…

    Why are all of these groups involved in this? Isn’t this enough evidence to cause one to be alarmed?

  • Andy

    “The involvement of a few violent people and Marxists in mass demonstrations does not invalidate the whole purpose of the demonstrations; otherwise we can conclude that WTO is good because a few of the people who protest against it are not.”

    It later came out that the violent protestors at the big WTO protest a few years back were government agent provocetuers. I think that it’s safe to say that the whole illegal alien movement being manipulated by government(s) and is filled with agent provocetuers. If (or when) the $#*+ hits the fan with this situation look all hell to break loose. The LA riots after the Rodney King trial were probably nothing compared to what is likely to come.

  • Andy

    “Opponents of immigration are racist, nationalist, statists.”

    According to you this group of hispanic Americans who are against illegal immigration must hate themselves…

    http://dontspeakforme.org/

    As for being a nationalist and/or a statist, keep in mind that Murray Rothbard, the man who practically wrote the book on anarcho-capitalism, was not in favor of “open borders” and that he supported proposition 187 in California (the initiative in California back in the ’90’s that would have denied welfare benifits to illegal aliens if it hadn’t been thrown out in court by a leftist judge).

    I’m in favor of a systematic (I say systematic because I don’t believe that it can happen over night) dismantling of the state. I don’t know if it will happen in my life time or even at all but I support the concept.

  • kcjerith

    It is also improtant to note that the illegal immirgartion protest have a strong reiligous backing. The overwhelming majority of hispanics are catholic (no shit!) so if they had it their way we would be living in a theorcarcy/socalist country. With the pope as our defacto leader.

    I agree with you Andy the state has to be dissolved slowly, things like social security, medicade/care..etc would have to be slowly gotten rid of. Ontherwise we just end up ripping off the people who have already put into it….or wait..we already rip off everyone through SS. Well, we would rip them off more if we just got rid of it overnight.

    Andy, How far do you to disolve the state? the anracho-cap of Murray? or a ultraminimum state of Novak (anarchy, state and utopia)? While i concede that even an ultrminial state has issues, a state of anarchy has a problem with right protection, ie compting secuity firms would be unable to fairly protect people and property.

  • Andy

    “Andy, How far do you to disolve the state? the anracho-cap of Murray? or a ultraminimum state of Novak (anarchy, state and utopia)? While i concede that even an ultrminial state has issues, a state of anarchy has a problem with right protection, ie compting secuity firms would be unable to fairly protect people and property.”

    I’d like to disolve as much of the state as possible. How much is possible or is actually achievable I don’t know.

  • Jeremiah

    “The overwhelming majority of hispanics are catholic (no shit!) so if they had it their way we would be living in a theorcarcy/socalist country. With the pope as our defacto leader.”
    kcjerith

    That sounds like a problem, doesnt it?

    Look, it is obvious that we are getting NOWHERE. It would be nice though if some people didnt turn this into personal attacks and not just an intelligent discussion/argument about illegal immigration.

    “Why the fuck are you a even a Libertarin (are you?).”
    kcjerith

    I dont know, thats a good question.

  • Jeremiah

    Sorry, I just had to post this:

    “Because of jobs offshoring and illegal immigration, US consumers create jobs for foreigners, not for Americans. Bureau of Labor Statistics jobs reports document the loss of manufacturing jobs and the inability of the US economy to create jobs in categories other than domestic “hands on” services. According to a March 2006 report from the Center for Immigration Studies, most of these jobs are going to immigrants: “Between March 2000 and March 2005 only 9 percent of the net increase in jobs for adults (18 to 64) went to natives. This is striking because natives accounted for 61 percent of the net increase in the overall size of the 18 to 64 year old population.”
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12843.htm

    Read the whole thing. Its a great article describing how we are not a “superpower” anymore….

    I made my statements. Good luck America!

  • kcjerith

    To begin with jeremiah, you are the one worried about “diseased” (note racist undertones/ad hominen) immigrants. I am surprised you didnt’ call them lazy and dirty. also the one who states that unless you live in a borderstate (bullshit) you have no idea whats going on.

    Even if all your facts are 100% accurate, and may guess is that their our other numbers that would disagree, it still does not make ethical to restrict movement on to private properity. Privatize everything, that should be your focus, not marginazleing a group of people. yes you made your statements, they are myopic and iss the point of the lp party is doing.

  • paulie

    The government is there to protect us – Americans.

    Sure, if you believe in the easter bunny. It protects itself and its cronies and is a parasite on the people.

    If it is not protecting then why even have one at all?

    That’s what I’ve been saying. Get rid of it.

    Those that you would not welcome in your house, why welcome them to our country?

    Why would you presume whom I wouldn’t want in my home? Why is it any of your business? Maybe I do want them. So what? Maybe I don’t; what business of mine is it if my neighbor does? Since when is the whole country the regime’s property?

  • paulie

    I know that you are not the same as the globalist world government crowd, but you are playing into their hands.

    No more than you. If it’s race riots they want, those could erupt just as easily from the anti-immigration rallies. If it’s martial law, cracking down on businesses and citizens in the name of enforcing the border fits the bill. It’s alreday being used as an excuse for the “real ID”. What next?

  • paulie

    I doubt that all illegal immigrants intend to live at the expense of others (ie-the tax payers), however, the fact of the matter is that many of them do.

    Fewer, proportionally, than native born citizens or even legal immigrants.

    I’m aware of the fact that there are Marxists who are involved in WTO protests, peace protests, Wal-Mart protests, Bush protests, etc”¦ I agree with protesting all of the things that I just mentioned […] However, keep in mind that Marxists also protest a lot of things where I disagree with them

    Obviously, however, the mere involvement of Marxists proves nothing.

  • paulie

    I’m not opposed to all immigrants, some of them are fine people who are a benifit to society. However, most of these illegal alien protestors are low life scum.

    Most? How do you make that determination?

    I think that the fact that there were Marxist operatives involved in these marches, and that one of the biggest – or perhaps the biggest – of these marches happened on May 1st, or May Day which is a COMMUNIST HOLIDAY, is quite distrubing.

    Ad ifferent perspective on May Day is at
    http://radgeek.com/gt/2005/05/01/may_day

  • paulie

    a state of anarchy has a problem with right protection, ie compting secuity firms would be unable to fairly protect people and property.

    Why? And – the regime does?

  • paulie

    ““Because of jobs offshoring and illegal immigration, US consumers create jobs for foreigners,”

    So you’re against trade too?

    ““Why the fuck are you a even a Libertarin (are you?).”
    kcjerith

    I dont know, thats a good question. (Jeremiah)

    paul) Doesn’t sound like it. Still curious about an alternative explanation re: Phillies’ comments on Europe.

  • paulie

    The first sentence in 97 was Andy’s – looks like I blew the tags, it should be in italics.

  • Timothy West

    not a one of you motherfuckers in this thread save maybe two have any idea how you would implement anything you advocate in reality. Why is that?

    Religion is based on faith. Libertarianism is based on reason.

    Libertarianism is based on faith that reason and logic can make people free, which never has and never will. People become free becuase they SEIZE their freedom and TAKE IT, through the political process or through armed insurrection.

  • paulie

    Those are only two methods. Persuasion is a third. Civil disobedience is a fourth. Non-publicized non-compliance is a fifth.

  • kcjerith

    West, I do have an idea on how to implement the ideas of the LP party. I believe the best route is two gain a foothold in one or two states and then grow the party from thier. The NH free state project is a good example of this. i am already looking at grad schools thier. I also believe that civil disobedience is a fair way to get some results. A couple of hundred LP members blocking the entrance to ATF/DEA/insert your own government agency here. Not sure how effective the last one would be, but it would make waves.

    You are right though “faith” (a different type of faith then religious faith) alone will not change things.

  • Jeremiah