Cheech and Chong on the Immigration Issue

Cheech or Chong?
http://kubby.com/KubbyTommyChongNORML.jpg

Well, better on than off

How about – ONDCP? You know, the Drug Czar. Or perhaps DEA or FDA?

My fault for assuming that. I was scrolling through Kubby’s site and saw that pic. Plus I remember Cheech being in some cop sitcom. It’s hard to tell where the hell these celebrities stand politically.

If they’d accept of course, I’d have Tommy Chong be Doug Stanhope’s secretary of defense. Drop burning bushes of some prime chiba all over our enemies. Foreign tentions all over the world solved almost immediately.

Have cheech pull in the latin vote. We got the white house.

immigration is the “issue” chosen by Republicans and Democrats to advance a distraction in hopes that much larger issues they are responsible for will not become issues. :)

The “Immigration issue” just appeared upon my TV screen out of nowhere some months ago, with no news story to match it. It literally appeared out of thin air. Anytime that happens, some fucker is pulling strings on a puppet(s) to make it happen. The news media is so consolidated ( only 5 networks worldwide not owned by another network or media presence ) that unlike 9/11, a inside job is not hard to believe for me.

This has been going on for the last 25 to 30 years, and it’s never even remotely been the focus of american politics until now. My guess: they want to have an excuse for even clamping down harder on mobility for citizens and immigrants alike in the next few years – including political cover for the new National ID card you will surrender upon demand ( YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE) within 2 1/2 years.

Personally I think we ought to look at this from a different angle. While I am in the boat with undercover-anarchist I’m more interested in looking at how this no name Congress critter from Colorado, who knows damn well that they need immigrants to work the fields, made this into a national story and is no longer an unknown congresscritter. Look at how he worked this up until it was front page stuff in virtually every paper and on all the video news. Tancredo mastered in Public Relations somehwere and has now passed his biggest test.
I have to wonder what nationality Tancredo is?
M.H.W.

I’m for open immigration, giving anyone who wants to come a green card after a quick background check.

But the borders do need to be secure. I’m not worried about some guy who wants a better life sneaking over. Until we change the law to allow him to come over easily and legally, good for him for making it over and circumventing the federal government. Welcome to the land of the free. I am worried about terrorists potentially using our weak border security against us, however.

We have to make it difficult to get across the border without us knowing. At the same time we have to make it easy for anyone who wants to come to this country to get in safely. I can’t accept either/or on that, I want both.

As long as our system provides free education, health care, and assorted other goods to anyone that walks in, we cannot have unrestricted immigration. I’m sure Mr. undercover_anarchist won’t mind being taxed even more to pay for the “human rights” of these people.

The government has been throwing all kinds of stuff at drug smugglers for years without making much more than a dent, so given that evidence of the government’s ability to stop something before it gets here I kinda have doubts about their ability to stop terrorist, or whatever, or whomever wishes to get in. So basically we change whatever we, that be the g-men, are doing, or bend over and kiss our ass good-bye.
M.H.W.

NO WONDER why Libertarians dont win shit…… dont be so Idealistic that you stop be realistic/logical. We are NEVER going to live in a perfect Libertarian society… there are too many people/cultures/etc… too much brainwashing from our great education system/media. Can we try to just move in a libertarian direction without getting “the perfect libertarian society” over night(which wont happen)?

Common nonsense is more like it.

Phillies)However, Americans are entitled to the certainty that their country’s just laws will be enforced until those laws are changed.

paul) Those are not just laws.

Phillies)Americans who quote the Statue of Liberty’s message ‘Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free’ should remember that it was written when France, Germany and Russia were autocratic monarchies. The huddled masses of Europe now breathe free.

paul) For starters, I’m not so sure that the masses of Europe are free, but if they, so what? What of the rest of the world? Is Phillies a white supremacist?

Phillies)When Americans want open borders, they will tell Congress to vote for open borders.

paul) Since when do libertarian principles depend on majoritarianism?

Phillies)Foreign Workers – All too often, we hear claims that we must import foreign workers because Americans won’t do those jobs. ‘Those jobs’ are hard, physically demanding, outdoor work that require constant, careful attention to detail. Those jobs should be receiving a wage premium, not be barely-minimum-wage sources of employment. If those jobs paid that premium, there would be Americans available to do them. Mr. Bush’s foreign guest worker scheme is a corporate welfare deal at the expense of the American worker.

paul) How about the American consumer? Mr Phillies’ border control scheme is a labor welfare deal at the expense of the
American consumer, which hurts American workers in the long run.

Professors Phillies knows physics, but apparently not economics.

Cheap laor = slavery?

No.

Cheap labor = the free market.

The opposite is a Marxsist, nationalist proposition. “Let’s let the government erect artificial barriers and price controls to make sure that (white) Americans can make more money than they deserve – since they’ll need it with the prices of products artificially boosted due to the overpaid labor.”

Stupid shit.

And to the guy who said “have you seen the effects of illegal immigration?”

Yeah. Cheap food. Affordable hotel rooms and restaruant meals. Innovation. Competition. Capitalism. Etc.

Any and all serious, peer-reviewed studies show that open immigration benefits our economy. The only argument against open immigration is a racist, nationalist argument that doesn’t deserve to be heard. Once, I respected Mr. Phillies. Now I’m sure that he’ll be broken-hearted to find out thatI no longer do. His racist, economically ignorant platform is no better than the American Talib ideaology of the CP.

Free movement is a human right

If Americans cant get complete freedom, then how can we free the World??

So, the positives of illegal immigration is a cheap room and cheap food?

The negatives are overcrowding(adds traffic), crime, English no longer being the first language, hospitals closing, schools falling apart,…
yes, the end of “America” as we know it. Why even be a country if we are going to have open borders? If the borders are imaginary?
“Come and stay if you please, shit on my lawn if you want…. its a free country.” Why even care about 9-11 with that mindset? Its their
problem, right? We are just a plot of land for “free trade.” As long as we can make more money, right? Thats what it is all about.

Some people worship Capitalism like it can do no wrong, Yes, it brought many good things to our lives, but there are also many horrible things.
Pollution, urban sprawl/overcrowding, our great education system(formed by the Capitalists, and run by the Government that is controlled by the
Capitalists), a consumer society(that can care less about Freedom), wars(thanks to Big Oil), Republicans and Democrats are the biggest Capitalists
of them all……

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00008072&cycle=2004

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?id=N00000245&cycle=2004

Must read article – ‘A Libertarian Argument Against Opening Borders’
http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_3.pdf

Jeremiah, part of having an open borders policy that would work in the usa is that the schools, hospitals would be privatly run, so if the immigrants could pay (like anyone else) then more power to them. In a libertarian socity schools and hosptials would not close or fall apart.

Your worried about english not being the primary langauge in usa? Ummm, in a free country you can say what you please (this includes the freedom to pick what language you say it in). And no one has the right to shit on private property.

What is most disturbing is your illogical rant against cpatalism. Urban sprawl was caused by the creation of interstate highway system (a socalist type policy).

As for your comments about pollution i would go to the laissez faire books (might also check the LP site). You can order several books that will expalin to intresting facts. First government intervention have caused the majority of enviromental damage, starting largly with Thedore Rosevelt and (cont)

Exactly, illegal immigrants couldnt pay for schools or their hospital bill. They are just cheap labor, remember? Then what?….

Urban sprawl was created by the rich during the Industrial Revolution. The Industrial Revoltution also gave us our dense populations and other wonderful things.
http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-234527

So, the government created all of our factories and vehicles?… the greatest causes of our pollution?

“It was the industrial revolution that gave birth to environmental pollution as we know it today.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution

(cont) the industrial revoulution chance are you would have died before you hit two years old. To parapharse Ayn Rand “every time you see a smoke stack you should hug it”

And primative socites had horriable envimnnetal problems. many preindusrtial cities had horriable diesase rates. The carnary islands ( a tribal socalist goverment)basically wiped themselves out without any help from the industial revoulution. Any time primative man spread to a new continet (america being a prime example). they wiped out (in mass0 most large species that lived their. Wikapedia needs to gets it head out of its ass and do some fact checking.

So, Michael J. Boskin, who is on Exxon’s Board is wrong or lying when he praises Capitalism here:
http://www.hooverdigest.org/994/boskin2.html

Lying about what? he anazyis about captalsim is appears to be right (I didn’t go over it in great detail with it being after five in the morning in kansas). I do find him a bit hypocritical, the oil comapnies are the first ones to line up for free handouts. Of course they also have to put up with very tough regulations when it comes to drilling and processing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/Anti-capitalism_color.gif

Stop treating libertarianism and capitalism like a religion, like it has no flaws(and you have to follow it to a T or you are going to hell). We also have to look if these ideas will even work, or how they work, in todays real world. We dont live in Colonial America.

Opening borders will create an overflow of millions of non English speaking peoples(do they have diseases? are they murders?, criminals?, extremely poor?, etc). They will have no pride or desire to make America better and it will become the nomadic “country” that I stated earlier. What will happen to “libertarian” America in this case? Do you keep the “crazies” out? Then it is not an open border and you are stopping “free movement”.

Also, to those of you that are pro illegal immigration… are you anywhere close to a “border state”? If not, you do not have ANY IDEA of the problems that it causes and of the consequences of an open border.

(cont)they comne right back. As for them being criminals or insane that is what a polic force is for, and from my understanding the vast majority who come over are here to work. You are right, if we would limit personel freedom it might make us a little safer (maybe). Isn’t that always the case? If you the big scarey immigrants frighten you might be best living in a box.

“1000 curses on anyone who opposes the human right of free movement. Eternal praise to all libertarian and other leaders who stand in the face of the racist, “populist” opposition to free immigration.”

I’d say 1,000 curses on naive fools who support tresspassing criminal racist (“La Raza”) welfare recipients. You are not supporting anarchism, you are supporting communism. The REAL anarchist are not for open borders (unless of course the owners of the land want open borders), they are for PRIVATE PROPERTY BORDERS. Acting like “open borders” is a libertarian position is not only moronic, it is dishonest. Any land that I own I sure as HELL do NOT want open borders on it. Acting like most people want open borders is completely absurd.

This is all a part of the New World Order agenda. The New World Order crowd WANTS to flood the country with illegal aliens as a step towards achieving one world government.

I’m sick & tired of hearing people who claim to be libertarians supporting – or at least playing into the hands of – the Council On Foreign Relations (CFR)/Bilderberg Group agenda. Are you people globalist plants, or just naive??? Don’t you see what the hell is going on her? Let me spell it out for you. The plan is to flood this country with as many illegal aliens as possible so they can merge the USA, Mexico, and Canada into the North American Union. This is the next step towards global government. They (meaning the globalists who control both the Democrats and the Republicans) want to lower our standard of living and dumb down society. They want to expand the welfare state. They want to create race riots so they can usher in martial law. This is all a part of a plan that has got NOTHING to do with freedom!

CFR/Bilderberg Plan To Erase US Borders And Create A North American Union
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2006/210606cfrplan.ht

Some of you people should love Bush, since a PR firm connected with Bush and Vincente Fox organized the May 1st immigration rallies. Notice how they chose May 1st which is May Day, a communist holiday!

Bushite Neo-Cons Responsible For May Day Immigration Protest
http://www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/may_day_neocons_responsible_for_protests.htm

Group agenda. Are you people globalist plants,

I’m a globalist mineral.

J) Overpaid labor? Who? You mean if people get paid more then prices will go up?”¦ is that like when people who get fired from decent jobs(that go overseas and go to illegals) work at jobs like Walmart and get paid less, prices go down?

P) So you are for protectionism too? Apparently, you favor immigration controls as a form of protectionism – artificially propping up the wages of a select group of people. Whenever you do this, it can only hurt the economy. Imagine, for instance, if this principle were applied to states – or cities – or neighborhoods. Would you be better off if you were restricted in travelling and trading beyond a mile of where you live? How about just your own householdd forced to be completely self-sufficient; no outside jobs, no buying or selling anything. What do you think your living standard would be?

J)So, an Anarchist state will be better?”¦ Still only the rich will control the masses. We are cheap labor, remember?

paul) Anarchism will be better, but no state. The regime doesn’t help the poor, it keeps them that way. Do away with limited liabiltity, corporate welfare, and taxes and regulations by the regime: this will hold business accountable for their actions while allowing the little guy to start a business and comepete against bigger business on a more level playing field. The economy will blossom and a rising tide will lifet all boats. To an inadequate extent, this was the way America used to do things, and that included massive immigration. There were xenophobes predicting dire consequences back then too.

“P) So you are for protectionism too? Apparently, you favor immigration controls as a form of protectionism – artificially propping up the wages of a select group of people.”

People can get away with paying immigrants below market wages because the immigrants can collect welfare benifits. Free education for their kids, free healthcare, free food stamps, etc…, all paid for by the tax payer. And of course their kids are usually kept out of the statistics since many of them are born here as “anchor babies” and are therefore considered to be American citizens.

The US government controls most of the land in this country. I don’t like this but this is the situation that we live under. I pay for the upkeep of this land through whatever taxes I pay, as does everyone else. If our government ceased to exsist this land would be broken up and owned by a bunch of different people, most of whom would not want just anybody waltzing in whenever they feel like it.

“paul) Anarchism will be better, but no state. The regime doesn’t help the poor, it keeps them that way. Do away with limited liabiltity, corporate welfare, and taxes and regulations by the regime: this will hold business accountable for their actions while allowing the little guy to start a business and comepete against bigger business on a more level playing field. The economy will blossom and a rising tide will lifet all boats. To an inadequate extent, this was the way America used to do things, and that included massive immigration. There were xenophobes predicting dire consequences back then too.”

Massive immigration today has nothing to do with expanding freedom, it’s about expanding the state. Just like NAFTA, GATT, The WTO, and CAFTA have nothing to do with free trade.

A)Massive immigration today has nothing to do with expanding freedom,

P) So the people immigrating now are automatons with no free will? They are not seeking freedom or a better life as people in the past did when immigrating?

J)“It was the industrial revolution that gave birth to environmental pollution as we know it today.”

P) Clearly, the solution is to go back to the horse and buggy era by banning the technological changes that have taken place during and since the Industrial revolution. The resulting mass famine and disease would bring population down to an acceptable level.

“A)Massive immigration today has nothing to do with expanding freedom,

P) So the people immigrating now are automatons with no free will? They are not seeking freedom or a better life as people in the past did when immigrating?”

Seeking a better life at whose expense? The tax payers!

I don’t think that every illegal alien is KNOWINGLY part of an agenda, but whether they realize it or not they are being used as “useful idiots” to further an agenda. That agenda is for world government and communism.

Here’s another part of the REAL agenda, martial law.

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/march2006/300306raceriots.htm

“P) The education system was created by socialists and fascists. The government is controlled by same.”

Who also happen to be the same people who are in favor of massive illegal immigration!

Seeking a better life at whose expense? At the expense of hard work, generally. As for useful idits in a race riot/martial law agenda, anti-immigration protestors can be that too. The involvement of a few violent people and Marxists in mass demonstrations does not invalidate the whole purpose of the demonstrations; otherwise we can conclude that WTO is good because a few of the people who protest against it are not.

People can get away with paying immigrants below market wages because the immigrants can collect welfare benifits.

Actually, “illegal” immigrants are less likely to collect welfare benefits because a lot of times they are afraid of any government office. Also, many times theit wives and kids are back home. Not eeryone, of course. They often pay SS taxes which they can never collect. And don’t forget that the money paid in taxes to those benefits could instead be going to higher prices for goods and services which are made more expensive by artificially restricting the available supply of labor. Another alternative, if the market would not bear higher prices, is fewer goods and services available and more unemplyment because more companies have gone out of business – and then you would end up with just as many or more people on welfare.

FACT
“Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.”
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
FACT
“Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).”
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Franklin, Benjamin (founding father)

“The importation of foreigners into a country that has as many inhabitants as the present employments and provisions for subsistence will bear, will be in the end no increase of people, unless the new comers have more industry and frugality than the natives, and then they will provide more subsistence, and increase in the country; but they will gradually eat the natives out. Nor is it necessary to bring in foreigners to fill up any occasional vacancy in a country for such vacancy will soon be filled by natural generation.”
(“Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind and the Peopling of Countries,” 1751)

In fac the article you site says that the main differance between todays immigrants and theones during the late 1800′s early 1900′s, is that todays illegals use more federal aid than before. So, stop all of the fed programs and you shouldn’t have any problems.

How long would it take, after MANY years of even trying to get enough libertarians into office to make a difference, to transition a welfare system into a “libertarian” system? And transitioning to all private property? Has any government in the history of mankind ever achieved this? Maybe through much bloodshed.

So, is it that we would wait 50 years to get our government in order before we opened the borders or is that what we should do now? What do we then do with the millions added to the welfare roles in the meantime? What happens with the millions that wont be able to afford health care, schooling, and food when the programs are gone?

Opening borders seems like a good philosophy, but not a good policy. The government is there to protect us – Americans. If it is not protecting then why even have one at all? Those that you would not welcome in your house, why welcome them to our country?

wow, my spelling sux. My bad.

“Yes Jeremiah, that is why we should end medicade, food assisatance, food stamps”¦etc. Again, open borders only work when people don’t have pay for each shit, and when the 99.999% of land is owned by private sector (people or compaanies). They you couldn’t cry about the “illegals” taking money.”

Comment by kcjerith ”” 2006-09-03 @ 7:28 pm

You hit the correct! Of course such a system wouldn’t really be called “open borders” – perhaps calling it individual choice borders would be more accurate – but none the less your point is valid.

the Marxists would be there (although there is overlap in some cases). However, keep in mind that Marxists also protest a lot of things where I disagree with them, such as protests in favor of gun control laws (like the Million “Commie Mommies” March), protesting tax cuts, protesting Spending Limits initiatives (like those idiot scum bags who were blocking petitioners in various states recently), protesting getting rid of Affirmative Action, etc…

I’m not opposed to all immigrants, some of them are fine people who are a benifit to society. However, most of these illegal alien protestors are low life scum.

I think that the fact that there were Marxist operatives involved in these marches, and that one of the biggest – or perhaps the biggest – of these marches happened on May 1st, or May Day which is a COMMUNIST HOLIDAY, is quite distrubing. And it is even more disturbing when you look at who else was involved: a PR firm that’s connected with GW Bush and

“The involvement of a few violent people and Marxists in mass demonstrations does not invalidate the whole purpose of the demonstrations; otherwise we can conclude that WTO is good because a few of the people who protest against it are not.”

It later came out that the violent protestors at the big WTO protest a few years back were government agent provocetuers. I think that it’s safe to say that the whole illegal alien movement being manipulated by government(s) and is filled with agent provocetuers. If (or when) the $#*+ hits the fan with this situation look all hell to break loose. The LA riots after the Rodney King trial were probably nothing compared to what is likely to come.

It is also improtant to note that the illegal immirgartion protest have a strong reiligous backing. The overwhelming majority of hispanics are catholic (no shit!) so if they had it their way we would be living in a theorcarcy/socalist country. With the pope as our defacto leader.

I agree with you Andy the state has to be dissolved slowly, things like social security, medicade/care..etc would have to be slowly gotten rid of. Ontherwise we just end up ripping off the people who have already put into it….or wait..we already rip off everyone through SS. Well, we would rip them off more if we just got rid of it overnight.

Andy, How far do you to disolve the state? the anracho-cap of Murray? or a ultraminimum state of Novak (anarchy, state and utopia)? While i concede that even an ultrminial state has issues, a state of anarchy has a problem with right protection, ie compting secuity firms would be unable to fairly protect people and property.

“The overwhelming majority of hispanics are catholic (no shit!) so if they had it their way we would be living in a theorcarcy/socalist country. With the pope as our defacto leader.”
kcjerith

That sounds like a problem, doesnt it?

Look, it is obvious that we are getting NOWHERE. It would be nice though if some people didnt turn this into personal attacks and not just an intelligent discussion/argument about illegal immigration.

“Why the fuck are you a even a Libertarin (are you?).”
kcjerith

I dont know, thats a good question.

To begin with jeremiah, you are the one worried about “diseased” (note racist undertones/ad hominen) immigrants. I am surprised you didnt’ call them lazy and dirty. also the one who states that unless you live in a borderstate (bullshit) you have no idea whats going on.

Even if all your facts are 100% accurate, and may guess is that their our other numbers that would disagree, it still does not make ethical to restrict movement on to private properity. Privatize everything, that should be your focus, not marginazleing a group of people. yes you made your statements, they are myopic and iss the point of the lp party is doing.

I know that you are not the same as the globalist world government crowd, but you are playing into their hands.

No more than you. If it’s race riots they want, those could erupt just as easily from the anti-immigration rallies. If it’s martial law, cracking down on businesses and citizens in the name of enforcing the border fits the bill. It’s alreday being used as an excuse for the “real ID”. What next?

I’m not opposed to all immigrants, some of them are fine people who are a benifit to society. However, most of these illegal alien protestors are low life scum.

Most? How do you make that determination?

I think that the fact that there were Marxist operatives involved in these marches, and that one of the biggest – or perhaps the biggest – of these marches happened on May 1st, or May Day which is a COMMUNIST HOLIDAY, is quite distrubing.

Ad ifferent perspective on May Day is at
http://radgeek.com/gt/2005/05/01/may_day

““Because of jobs offshoring and illegal immigration, US consumers create jobs for foreigners,”

So you’re against trade too?

““Why the fuck are you a even a Libertarin (are you?).”
kcjerith

I dont know, thats a good question. (Jeremiah)

paul) Doesn’t sound like it. Still curious about an alternative explanation re: Phillies’ comments on Europe.

not a one of you motherfuckers in this thread save maybe two have any idea how you would implement anything you advocate in reality. Why is that?

Religion is based on faith. Libertarianism is based on reason.

Libertarianism is based on faith that reason and logic can make people free, which never has and never will. People become free becuase they SEIZE their freedom and TAKE IT, through the political process or through armed insurrection.

West, I do have an idea on how to implement the ideas of the LP party. I believe the best route is two gain a foothold in one or two states and then grow the party from thier. The NH free state project is a good example of this. i am already looking at grad schools thier. I also believe that civil disobedience is a fair way to get some results. A couple of hundred LP members blocking the entrance to ATF/DEA/insert your own government agency here. Not sure how effective the last one would be, but it would make waves.

You are right though “faith” (a different type of faith then religious faith) alone will not change things.