A Veteran’s Perspective on the Abu Ghraib Photos

Just like the rest of the country, the rhetoric on this site is intensifying as a result of the new Abu Ghraib photos. Salon just published an even newer batch of them. Beware, there is a lot of blood and nudity in the latest of the torture photos.

Trevor stated:

The people responsible will be or have been punished. That’s the difference between the old and new Iraq. In the old, those responsible for the much wider torture going on were not held accountable – they were actually government sanctioned.

Wrong answer, dude. Only the lower level heads have rolled — but not the senior ones most responsible for this.

Vietnam veteran Julian (when not fighting with Pauli and Artus) defended Trevor with:

Glad to see you are still around. Most of these jack asses don’t know you are in Irag and are in the army. You are the real eyewitness to history.

Guess what? I’ve spent over a decade in the Army, and find the actions at Abu Ghraib absolutely deplorable. I’ve been the eyewitness to history that Julian described; I was stationed in Germany when the wall fell. I am still proud of my minor role in tearing it down, too. While I can expect a ration of shit from people like Artus and Pauli, they should know that I got out for two reasons: doubts about the first Iraqi War followed by Clinton’s absolute disrespect and misuse of the military.

Should America ever be truly threatened by some other country, I’ll be in the front of the line to defend her. I’m neither a pacifist nor a member of the left — no matter what the WSJ says about my actions. I volunteered to help defend my country — not to offend other countries. We’ve clearly lost sight of the concept of a defensive military since WWII. It may be notable that we haven’t actually had a constitutionally declared war since then, either.

Julian seems to think that bravery (and the right to hold an opinion about things military) should be reserved for those who have served. OK, dude — I’ve done my time, and then some, and then some more. Perhaps he and others like him will at least listen to me.

This war is bullshit. We attacked the wrong frigging people. Saddam Hussein did not kill 3,000 people on 9/11. There are no WMDs. Saddam Hussein is in jail now — negating yet another reason stated for going to war. We have no reason to be in Iraq right now. None at all.

Our rape and torture of POWs and detainees is deplorable. It serves no purpose. When I was in the Army, had any of my buddies been engaged in such activities, every last one of us would have done what we could to stop it. Not only would most of the troops reported it, commanders would have started serious investigations immediately. At a lower level, they probably would have “blanket-partied” anyone involved. I wouldn’t even rule out the possibility that someone might have fragged an NCO or junior officer involved, too.

That was my Army. Today’s Army is considerably less professional, and suffers from a serious lack of professional military leadership. The civilian leadership is even worse, providing guidelines like the Bush Doctrine which expands our offensive role.

America needs to wake up to what our military is doing and insist that it resume a defensive role, as opposed to an expansionistic one. Perhaps this latest round of extremely twisted pictures will open a few more eyes.

posted by Stephen Gordon
  • paulie cannoli

    I am still proud of my minor role in tearing it down, too. While I can expect a ration of shit from people like Artus and Pauli, they should know that I got out for two reasons: doubts about the first Iraqi War followed by Clinton’s absolute disrespect and misuse of the military.

    Steve, you’re NOT going to catch any flak from me for having been in the military. I thought I made clear I oppose the institution, not each individual who has been in it. I can say the same for the Red Army or the Wehrmacht. I know plenty of good people who were Red Army soldiers. Doesn’t make the Reds a good thing

    I have participated in various institutions which are as bad or worse, and no, I won’t say which ones.

    As for Artus, see comment 29 in the thread you reference.

    S/He doesn’t even oppose the institution itself, just its misuse along the same lines as you do.

    I hope you will not follow Julian’s lead in ascribing to us positions which are different from what we actually said.

  • paulie cannoli

    I am still proud of my minor role in tearing it down, too. While I can expect a ration of shit from people like Artus and Pauli, they should know that I got out for two reasons: doubts about the first Iraqi War followed by Clinton’s absolute disrespect and misuse of the military.

    Steve, you’re NOT going to catch any flak from me for having been in the military. I thought I made clear I oppose the institution, not each individual who has been in it. I can say the same for the Red Army or the Wehrmacht. I know plenty of good people who were Red Army soldiers.

    I have participated in various institutions which are as bad or worse, and no, I won’t say which ones.

    As for Artus, see comment 29 in the thread you reference.

    S/He doesn’t even oppose the institution itself, just its misuse along the same lines as you do.

    I hope you will not follow Julian’s lead in ascribing to us positions which are different from what we actually said.

  • paulie cannoli

    I am still proud of my minor role in tearing it down, too. While I can expect a ration of shit from people like Artus and Pauli, they should know that I got out for two reasons: doubts about the first Iraqi War followed by Clinton’s absolute disrespect and misuse of the military.

    Steve, you’re NOT going to catch any flak from me for having been in the military. I thought I made clear I oppose the institution, not each individual who has been in it. I can say the same for the Red Army or the Wehrmacht. I know plenty of good people who were Red Army soldiers. Didn’t make the USSR good.

    I have participated in various institutions which are as bad or worse, and no, I won’t say which ones.

    As for Artus, see comment 29 in the thread you reference.

    S/He doesn’t even oppose the institution itself, just its misuse along the same lines as you do.

    I hope you will not follow Julian’s lead in ascribing to us positions which are different from what we actually said.

  • paul lee-cagneole

    Hey, why am I getting spam filtered?!

    While I can expect a ration of shit from people like Artus and Pauli,

    Negative. I wrote “hell no! I don’t hate all the people in it, although I do hate the institution and wish it was disbanded asap.” (comment 19) while Artus said he supports the institution, just not its misuse, along the same lines as you (#29).

    I don’t consider you any less moral for having served in the US military than the many good people I knew who had served in the Soviet Red Army or the IDF (this is not sarcasm). I’ve participated in evil institutions myself – I’m not saying which ones. I’m sure there were good people in the Wehrmacht. Having good people in them does not make these evil institutions good.

    You won’t be catching any flak from me over this one.

    Julian is the one claiming Artus and I hate all military people, but his claims are based in delusion, not reality. I hope you will not continue to claim we do as well.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen Gordon

    Let me guess – you were either a REMF (rear echelon mother fucker), an officer or both. If so, I have no respect for your opinion or service. If I am wrong, which I doubt, then you deserve to have an opinion because you earned it.

    I’m waiting for your reply.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen Gordon

    What a great way to disenfranchise veterans. You and the other bloggers keep this shit up and you will never get military veterans to vote Libertarian. I could have been a libertarian but this antiwar shit all the time is what turned me off and I suspect many veterans whether they be 21 or 95 think the same way so keep it up and we will all say to you and the Libertarian Party, you don’t want our vote so fuck you and the whole libertarian movement.

    You must be an idiot working trying to attract new voters and then indirectly telling them they are worthless in their belief about Iraq and defense matters so fuck your vote, we don’t want it. Keep it up and the Libertarian Party will stay exactly where it is, a wannabe bunch of losers.

  • http://voiceofgrog.com/ Mike Horn

    Julian says:
    Let me guess – you were either a REMF (rear echelon mother fucker), an officer or both.

    Nice, now you up your requirements for a legitimate opinion to someone who fought on the front lines. Are you saying that only someone who has been shot at deserves the RIGHT to protest, argue against and denounce the deplorable actions of our military?

    I served six years in the Florida Army National Guard. I’m sure you don’t consider me a “real” soldier (Despite the fact that Guard members made up 41% of the fighting force until recently) because I didn’t fight in either Iraq conflict. I was an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician and put my life on the line every month.

    I personally know of several dozen Vietnam Vets (Decorated Sergeants, satisfied?) who share the SAME views we do here. What will you tell them to their face? The same thing I’m sure. It doesn’t matter who you hear it from, your mind is set.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Sometimes REMF in my latter years — but generally not. I was a Signal Corps NCO, and was assigned, supported or attached to units like the 9th ID, 11th ACR, 2d/75th Infantry (Ranger), 1st SF Group and most infantry divisions stationed in Germany in the 80s at some time. I spent most of my time in the mud, and you can probably know some of the missions those units did (and where they were deployed) during the 80s.

    After that sort of duty, I became involved in cutting edge satellite communications, which moved me from tactical to more of a strategic role. In other words, most of that time, I was in the rear with the gear.

    During the first part of the Gulf War, they split up my satellite communications maintainence shop (22d Sig Bde) and sent some to the Gulf, some to Stuttgart to support 7th Corps HQ, and some to other areas. I was in the rear then — although we did get shot at even in Germany (drivebys — just hit buildings) I was the camp SOG that night.

  • Stephen Gordon

    (continued) Those gunshots were as close (and some of our equipment being blazed at Khobar Towers) as I got to the front then.

    Then they sent me in some sort of administrative bullshit deal to DC to be a telecommunications control officer. The only fun I had was laughing my ass off when the REMF unit spent its one day a year playing Army in the nearby woods. As I already noted, I got out as soon as possible after that transfer.

    So to answer your question, I’ve seen both sides of the Army — and about 50% of the time with each perspective. And I’ve got my share of ribbons, too. They mostly come from bullshit units and not from real units with real missions where real people actually get hurt.

  • Ian

    I love the men and women of the military for their dedication and willingness to sacrifice themselves. An individual whom is in my closest circle of friends (the people I’d hide a body for, if you get the reference) just recently got himself into the service as an MP. Luckily he’s being stationed at Ft Levinworth.

    Torture is a crime. It is also an incendiary action. We gain no friends in the Muslim world by NOT punishing those responsible.

    Iraq was a mistake. A purposeful mistake. The people I blame for it are the ones that pushed and mislead. I will shower with respect and admiration every man or woman I meet whom has served abroad in today’s army, until the day I discover they have proactively engaged in the dehumanization of foreign nationals (many of whom aren’t even our enemy any more than a French citizen).

    I will push for the return of our troops to where they belong until it no longer is necessary.

    I have never and will never serve. If that means I mean less to you –

  • Ian

    F/u post –

    If that means I mean less to you, so be it.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Ian,

    The way I see it, I served so my children would never have to. I don’t think less of anyone who didn’t serve. However, I understand Julian’s point that people who haven’t been there are often not the most qualified to direct something. I’m sure he and I could share a million LT jokes — even if we disagree about the war.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Julian– I am not antiwar. I am anti THIS war.

  • http://disvoter.blogspot.com The Disenfranchised Voter

    Julian is a joke. Don’t even bother with him.

    I love the fact that he throw around his Vietnam Vet as some sort of cred.

    You were used by your government Julian. Accept it, and stop misdirecting your hostility at the people who don’t want other soldiers to be USED by their government.

    Don’t ast as if you were ever seriously considering joining the libertarian movement. Your an imperialistic doofus on matters of foreign policy.

  • http://exjeffersonville.blogspot.com Scott

    Well said, Mr. Gordon.

  • http://disvoter.blogspot.com The Disenfranchised Voter

    *throws
    *You’re

  • Artus Register

    Stephen,

    Great post–as usual. The following confused me:

    While I can expect a ration of shit from people like Artus and Pauli, they should know that I got out for two reasons: doubts about the first Iraqi War followed by Clinton’s absolute disrespect and misuse of the military.

    You should expect exactly zero shit from me. You got out when you did for whatever reason. It is none of my business and I certainly don’t judge you. If you read something I wrote contrary to that, your context or mine was way off.

  • http://darianworden.tripod.com Darian W

    Good post, Stephen.

    However, (and I hate to nit-pick like this) it kind of bothers me that you use the words “we” and “our” like every American sent the military to Iraq and abused POW’s personally. I guess I’m being really anal but using words like that seems to implicitly connect all of us with the BS that the gov is doing.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Disenfranchised Voter
    The Disenfranchised Voter

    My address is

    8160 Pine Drive
    Rye, Colorado

    I invite you over to say that to my face. You are hiding in a computer, you piece of shit. Better than me giving you my address, give me yours. That way, it will be on my money to meet you face to face.

  • Stephen VanDyke

    JULIAN: IF YOU CAN’T DEBATE IN A RATIONAL MANNER ON THIS WEBSITE (E.G. WITHOUT STARTING SOME PISSING CONTEST AND HANDING OUT YOUR ADDRESS SO YOU CAN START A FIGHT), PLEASE GO THE FUCK AWAY. THIS IS PRIVATE PROPERTY AND YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED REPEATEDLY.

    THIS IS YOUR LAST WARNING, NEXT TIME I’LL JUST FUCKING CHANGE WHAT YOU SAY.

  • Stephen VanDyke

    BETTER YET, GO START YOUR OWN BLOG. STOP COMING HERE TO TROLL.

  • Michelle Shinghal

    Julian,
    I told Stephen once to go hug you, but I have changed my mind about the Rx. Please get laid. You are wound too tightly. On two different posts, you seem aching for some physical action. Instead of being angry, you need to express the side of you that wallows in ecstatic joy.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen Van Dyke

    [the following has been translated]
    I have a big government cock in my mouth and just wanted to share that with the world, please understand that I am just a tool who is here to convince everyone that war is a good thing and that questioning the government’s military involvement around the world is tantamount to sedition. I learned all of this of course by listening to talk radio and have nothing better to do than to repeat those talking points and call everyone else a pussy.

    Yum, this cock is delish.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen Van Dyke

    [the following has been translated]
    I cannot believe you will not bow down to this delicious cock? Trust me, the government’s cock is so tasty!

  • http://disvoter.blogspot.com The Disenfranchised Voter

    I guess my words are weapons…

    Did my post hit a little to close to the truth Julian?

    Yea, that’s what I thought.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen Van Dyke

    [the following has been translated]
    I’m taking my ball and going home again, you guys made me cry because you wouldn’t accept that sucking the government’s cock was the bestest thing in the world. Boo hoo, I’m going to cry now and call you all names.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Artus, my apologies. There were so many comments coming in ( I read them by e-mail) that I must have mixed up some of yours and Pauli’s comments.

    For what it is worth, Pauli is a local friend of mine, but I’m not going to take his more extreme position on the military.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Damn, Julian and Stephen — stop the fighting already. My intent was to provide a reasonable view on a topic that divides a lot of families, not to split them up.

    Why don’t we start talking and stop screaming.

  • Stephen VanDyke

    Talking failed. Banning commenced.

  • http://voiceofgrog.com/ Mike Horn

    Damn, I think Stephen should be a translator at the UN. :)

  • Artus Register

    Stephen Gordon,

    No problem. Did you get my email yesterday?

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen

    [the following has been translated]
    I am going to ramble on about how you are suppressing my first amendment rights. Oh boo hoo, I am not smart enough to realize that I have no such rights while on private property, so instead of starting my own blog I will cry about my inability to come fuck up the comments on yours.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Stephen Van Dyke

    So, you have even blocked your email.

  • http://disvoter.blogspot.com The Disenfranchised Voter

    Damn, I think Stephen should be a translator at the UN. :)

    LOL!

    Indeed.

  • Stephen Gordon

    Artus,

    Somehow I’ve lost your e-mail address. My e-mail crashed yesterday, and I do not have one from you. Pop me an e-mail so we can get back in sync.

  • disinter

    ROFL!

  • disinter
  • rickrajter

    If only there were some way to convince others that 9/11 wasn’t caused by the arab terrorists… :)

    But seriously, you’ll never convince the true believers of anything, no matter how many facts you shove in their face.

    This goes for war, abortion, ID versus evolution in school, whether elvis is still alive, etc.

  • Artus Register

    I just can’t believe that there are people who still beleive that Elvis is dead.

  • Andy

    9/11 was an inside job. The REAL culprits behind 9/11 are sitting in the White House, the CIA, and the Pentagon.

  • paulie cannoli

    Julian, are all these guys REMF or officers?

  • Ian C

    Stephen: Sorry for responding so belatedly.

    I wasn’t implying that you might think less of me. It was more meant as a response to Julian’s comment about “who gets to make decisions.”

    I *understand* why what’s happening there is happening. It’s nothing new. Since war began, this sort of thing has occurred.

    I understand it. That does not mean I *condone* it. It’s a dilemma, but at the same time, when one discovers a systematic approach and “forgiveness” for it under supervision… that’s a fault of the supervisors.

    I could rant for a while on this subject. So all I will say is: Without principle, ethics, and self-honesty, you have nothing.

  • http://www.opentorrent.org Open Torrent

    This goes for war, abortion, ID versus evolution in school, whether elvis is still alive, etc.

    Could be what you lump together, then again I am just as much to blame in that aspect! ;-) Interesting exchange on this thread… wow… I knew that Gordon’s comments would inflame julian… but … wow…

  • http://www.stophurtingamerica.com Stop Hurting America

    I think the main thing that was missed in this thread is that SG was attempting to convey that the true guilt has not been addressed. It is time for brass heads to roll for a change!

    I did not read that SG was attacking the common troops. He was not even attacking the war machine that is our nation! IMHO he was pointing out the lack of attention given to the true culprits. The men/women that GAVE the orders, that while in the military you are not allowed to deny! What… you think you can say no in a forward engagement!?

  • Stephen Gordon

    I believe most of the blame does go to the top. However, some of it has to go down to the lowest levels. As an example, the enlisted and junior NCOs actually committing acts of torture are guilty. The problems have to be fixed from on top, though.

  • paulie cannoli

    SG,

    For what it is worth, Paul is a local friend of mine, but I’m not going to take his more extreme position on the military.

    That’s fine, no two people agree on everything.

    The only thing I would ask is that you represent my position accurately. I am not going to criticize you just for having been in the military of any country, nor have I ever made any statemnt to say I would.

    If you want to argue THAT point with someone, try Jeremy Sapienza.

    However, since you brought it up….if I recall correctly, you now consider yourself an anarchist, like me. However, if an organization has a territorial monopoly on defense and/or is supported by stolen tax money, why would an anarchist want it to continue to exist? Wouldn’t we want a competitive market in mutual defense associations?

    Also, even I am technically not a pacifist; I don’t know if there are any more LeFebvreites around.

  • Stephen Gordon

    PC,

    While I’m an anarcho-capitalist, I don’t believe there is any current political viability which falls within my political beliefs. Therefore, in the spirit of the Dallas Accord, I push minarchist solutions, as I do believe they can be sold to the general public.

  • Artus Register

    That is very refreshing, Stephen. Many anarcho-capitalists have long forgotten (or always ignored) the Accord and bash minarchists at every opportunity–pragmatism be damned. Minarchists, for their part often accuse ACs of either outright hypocrisy or hopeless dreaming.
    It is nice to hear that someone has weighed the sides and comes down on that which is most palatable to the masses.

  • Stephen Gordon

    AR — obviously, I’d prefer less government in the mix than what I advocate, but at least it is a step in the right direction. BTW, I know several political consultants for the big two parties who have the same core political beliefs.

  • paulie cannoli

    FWTW I have nothing against minarchists, and welcome their help – when it is actually help. Some allegedly minarchist solutions, such as school vouchers, may well through their (I hope) unintended side effects do more harm than good.

    I worry that limiting government is much like cutting out most of the cancer cells; unless the job is finished, it grows back.

    And I would certainly consider SG’s proposed solution as stated in the original article would be a step in the right direction. As well as more immediately marketable than my views; however, I do wish the history of standing armies and the reasons to oppose them were being taught more widely.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    I cannot believe so many of you are living in fantasy land. I guess being an idealist is great when you are young, dumb and believe you can single handedly change the world and course of events. Grow up. You should have given that up by the time you left high school. That is what is wrong with higher education today, too many professors that see the world through rose colored glasses.

    How many of you were brainwashed by the public education system to hold on to such niave belief systems? Where the hell have you been living? You have not lived in the world I live in.

    I am a pragmatic realist. War and national defense is a nasty business. You say I don’t support the war but support the troops. You are full of crap. You know damn well the troops are the ones doing the dirty deeds, not the politicians, so you really do not support the troops. Get honest and quit hiding. I respect honesty, not bullshit. (continued)

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    (continued) Let’s take it one step further. You cannot support the troops as that is an oxymoron when you say “I do not support the war but will support the troops. Lie, lie, lie you do. You do not have the guts to say you do not support the troops.

    Your hippie shit parents did have the balls to at least admit they held Vietnam Vets in utter contempt and were willing to throw blood, vomit and shit on them. Spitting on them was a mild form of dissent. Throwing eggs and rotten vegetables was nothing. Why do you not get the courage to try that against the troops? Why not find them in the bars and the streets and attack them? You have no guts to do that because you know Vietnam Vets and all other veterans will not allow that to ever happen again.

    I cannot believe you cowards will sling around slanderous words and hide in a computer but are unwilling to go public and show your faces for what you believe. I will face you anytime, anywhere. You will not do the same.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Rick Rajter

    I see you are back with your insane ramblings about how the whole thing is somehow designed by a bunch of conspiratists. Don’t you know the only way a secret can be kept is if I tell you a secret, you must be killed so the secret stays a secret? You still believe hundreds, maybe thousands of gov’t men did not talk?

    You need to go to some sort of conspiracy convention. Do you wear some sort of foil pointed hat and run around like an idiot spreading this theory to whomever is gullible enough to buy into it? Man, and you are an MIT graduate student. This country is in more trouble than I ever thought knowing you and those that hold that belief system may soon be actually making decisions that will effect my life.

    You reinforce my decision to be well armed and plan for the coming revolution. I am glad I am a survivalist. To whomever implied I am a racist because of that, we have blacks, indians, hispanics and whites in our circle of friends, you idiot

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    We do discriminate against all that are middle easteners of the Muslim faith and anyone else that professes to be a Muslim because we cannot trust them. Maybe, some day when they are willing to denounce radical Islam teachings and become a part of the solution, not the problem, they will be welcome into our exclusive club. For now, they are totally untrustworthy because none of them will renounce the radical Muslim ways and believe strongly in a Islamic Facist state, not in a government of separation of church and state. They want to establish rule based on the Koran.

    What if I wanted to change our republic to reflect only Christian or Jewish teachings? How many of you would stand for that?

    Why don’t you quit being apologists for the radical Muslims, many whom I believe are living among us.

    When I see any movement by them away from the strict interpretation of the Koran and when they quit freaking out and threatening to kill infidels over cartoons, then I will respect them

  • Artus Register

    I support the troops. I don’t support the war. How can you fail to follow that? The removal of the Hussein regime was not worth a single drop of American blood. In case you missed it, Saddam wasn’t behind 9/11 and there were no WMDs.

    The troops who enlisted to perform national defense, if necessary, were sent into a Middle Eastern cesspool to fight a war based on obvious lies and forgeries. The war itself is pure bullshit. There is no legitimate reason to be fighting it. Follow me so far?

  • Artus Register

    Here’s part two, please try to pay attention.

    I support the troops. I want them to come home immediately. I don’t want them there, as many of them are dying there. See? Do you follow that? I support the troops–that is evinced by the fact that I want them out of harms way and out of the Iraqi occupation that will continue to anger the Muslim world and perpetuate the deaths of Americans.

    Those who claim to support the troops but wish them to remain in a hostile situation with targets painted on them for no legitimate purpose are every bit the hypocrites you claim us to be. Our position, supporting the troops but opposing the war, is the only consistent one.

    I await your angry and childish name-calling, your threats of violence and challenges to meet, akin to those offered by little kids on a playground. But I leave open the possibility that you may choose to discuss this like an adult.

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Artus Register

    If you support the troops, then you support the killing. They are the ones doing it and they have volunteered to do it as no one forced them to join the military. If you do not support the Iraq war, then you do not support the troops. The argument I am making is the only logical conclusion that can be made. You cannot have it both ways. Admit you really do not support the troops because if you could, you would have them become deserters and then you would support them for deserting a cause you do not believe in.

    I do support the troops because I support the Iraq war and the killing that goes along with it.

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  • paulie cannoli

    You still believe hundreds, maybe thousands of gov’t men did not talk?

    Sure, why not?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_project

  • Julian (a Vietnam Vet)

    Paulie Cannoli

    I cannot respond. I have stated my opinions too strongly, therefore I am banned from commenting. I am effectively banned from this site.

    You win. You and all libertarians are right right about everything.

    I am wrong and apologize for that.

  • paulie cannoli

    You can’t respond without what appear to be death threats, if in fact whatever you had in mind is not a fistfight?

    Well if violence is the only way you can prove your point, I guess you really do lose.

    It’s too bad that you are (apparently) sarcastic about having been wrong.

    And I’m about the last person to think all libertarians are right….many of them are full of crap.