A Fair Idea For Jilted Purists

I really think that the LP needs the purists. Most of the purists I’ve seen are resolved to stay in the LP and fight for their ideals, but a few of them are thinking of cutting their losses. An LP they don’t control is an LP they want no part in.

However, there’s yet plenty of opportunity for them to further their ideals in the political realm, even outside of the LP. Purist Menno Troyer has the right idea, I think. Here’s what he had to say:

Up to now, I have been quite active in my local LP. The only reason I became politically involved in the first place is because I perceived the LP as a true Party of Principle regarding individual rights and sovereignty. It has now resoundingly lost that distinction. I now face the choice of either remaining affiliated with a political party whose platform no longer reflects my values, or opting for a path outside of politics altogether”¦

Thank goodness there exists an alternative for all of us who are newly disillusioned with the LP and the political system in general: Free State Project/ NH Underground! Please consider joining me in making a last (victorious!) stand for liberty in the Free State of New Hampshire, where the Second American Revolution has already quietly begun”¦ know what, maybe it’s not such a sad day for liberty lovers after all! www.nhfree.com www.freestateproject.com

Seth Cohn, another FSP member who’s made the move, had this to add:

It’s pretty funny to me, Menno, that here I am in NH, cheering the LP platform changes, as a sign of progress and reform so that moderates now control the party, and we can make political headway everywhere including in NH, and here you are, jeering the LP platform and calling for people to join the FSP and take a stand.

It goes to show that _both_ sides are working within the FSP”¦ The FSP is NOT just for those who are upset with the platform, but also for those who approved heartily of the change.

I think this is a great idea for anyone who absolutely can’t stand where the LP is heading. In New Hampshire, there’s so much activism that can be done. If you can’t stomach any of the main political parties up there, you could always donate money and activism to one of the libertarian policy groups (NORML, Gun Owners of America, NH Underground, et cetera). Or if you’re fed up with politics in general, you can donate your time and efforts to scholarships for private schools, or write letters to the editor, or whatever.

I stand by my opinion that the libertarian movement needs all libertarians out there to join its ranks and agitate for liberty. If some can’t do that in the Libertarian Party, well, find one of the other libertarian groups out there and make a difference.

posted by Stuart Richards
  • paulie

    Perhaps if

    1) The FSP was anarchist and secessionist
    2) Had a real chance to take over NH
    3) And a way to protect itself from USSA regime reconquest

    I would consider it.

    It would be even more likely if it wasn’t cold in the winter, and if I had a job there.

    Perhaps, if global warming turns out to be real, the White Mountains might be calling me in a few decades or centuries.

    I stand by my opinion that the libertarian movement needs all libertarians out there to join its ranks and agitate for liberty. If some can’t do that in the Libertarian Party, well, find one of the other libertarian groups out there and make a difference.

    Well, for once we agree….

  • David Tomlin

    You think ‘purists’ need you to point out to them that there are opportunities for libertarian activism outside the LP?

    That people disagree with you doesn’t necessarily mean they are stupid. Coming to that realization is part of growing up.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    isnt the idea that someone has to take over something directly against anarchist and secessionist principle?

    “take over”?

  • ianbernard

    Menno rocks!

  • paulie

    isnt the idea that someone has to take over something directly against anarchist and secessionist principle?

    No. For example, when the Goths sacked Rome, they “took it over” but not in the sense that they became the new government.

    You can “take over” public opinion, for example, so the phrase is versatile and has nothing to do with anarchist principles.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    *Timothy Shrugged*

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Stuart,

    The question is not whether or not the LP needs the “purists.” It does. The question is whether or not the “purists” need the LP.

  • Devious David

    Rather than a “take over”, I would consider it “overcoming imposition”.

    The FSP is a fantastic tool and I hope every libertarian considers it and reconsiders it again. This is the best method of enjoying success. In particular since activism within the various organizations and various levels of establishment, a lot can be achieved in ways that best leverage each individuals unique abilities and skills in a synergistic way. Including, of course, the LP.

  • Devious David

    Let me add that the NHLP has the best case for radicalism, with incrementalists infiltrating the traditional parties. Fillibuster the ticket on all three sides, including the primaries, I say.

  • paulie

    Unfortunately, the opposite is true

    1. FSP is minarchist in stated goals, although some Free Staters are anarchists, the name implies that a State can be free (I prefer the State-Free Project).

    2. If FSP could take over state gov’t, they still can’t do anything about the feds, which is the biggest part of the government problem.

    3. They won’t be able to take over state government (and here I do mean take over in the sense Tim meant, since they are not anarchist). There are far too many non-libertarians in NH for that, and far too few libertarians in the country – much less ones who will actually move (easier to say you will than to actually do it).

    4. Perceived as outsiders, they are causing a backlash among locals. So they might actually make NH LESS free.

    5. Removes libertarians from other states.

    6. Easier target to round ‘em up.

    7. Still too cold in the winter.

  • paulie

    I know the people who worked the NHLP ballot access drive. It failed. Some of them have told me they would never work NH again. People were really not into signing in that state, and many cited the FSP as a reason. They did not even get enough raw signatures, so it was not the Nader factor, at all.

    Oklahoma failed to, but it has a much higher signature requirement.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Stuart, I’m NOT a native (please correct that in the post). I’m a early mover as part of the FSP, along with my wife. We moved almost 2 years ago, and I have no regrets about the move at all.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    As for the FSP ‘taking over’, we’re not. Anyone who claims that has no clue what they are talking about. If anything the FSP is about activating the native sentiments of small government and local control. They don’t need us to teach them how to be libertarians, they just need activists to awaken and strengthen the already existing libertarian-ish tendencies.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Re: Badnarik sigs, paulie doesn’t know what he is talking about. I could argue the facts, but he clearly doesn’t care about facts.

    Re: his reasons for not joining the FSP, he had no clue of what he speaks. Nothing like lies and/or paranoia to make your case…

  • paulie

    Re: Badnarik sigs, paulie doesn’t know what he is talking about. I could argue the facts, but he clearly doesn’t care about facts.

    Wrong on both counts. Feel free to argue. Even if you were right about me, someone else reading might be persuaded by your “facts”.

  • paulie

    Seth, I provided my reasons for not joining the FSP at present. Other than characterize them as “lies and paranoia” you have not answered a single one.

    I’m not lying; to the best of my knowledge, everything I said is accurate. Of course, i could be wrong, in which case I am open to persuasion.

    Even if you believe I am a liar, maybe someone else reading is curious why I am wrong and you are right; perhaps you would enlighten them?

  • Stuart Richards

    Corrected, my apologies Seth.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Paulie, you are the worst sort of troll, one who does more damage to your potential allies than any enemy could ever do.
    Go back to your cave, or feel free to take it over to Small Gov where they are more your speed, and I’ve already answered the question the last time a troll attempted to bring it as an attack on the FSP.

  • paulie

    Seth, I’ll ignore your gratuitous insults.

    and I’ve already answered the question the last time a troll attempted to bring it as an attack on the FSP.

    Please provide a link.

  • paulie

    Oops, sorry, now I see your smallgov link was a specific comment. It was the one I was addressing when I said it was not Nader, since there were not enough RAW signatures.

  • paulie

    In response to Seth’s comment at smallgov:

    “1) In early 2004, very few had moved yet. By fall 2004, we’d just reached 50 movers. Of the few who had moved, many helped collect signatures.”

    How many sigs did this rockin’ volunteer team get?

  • paulie

    “2) Badnarik’s ballot access was sabotaged by the paid signature collectors (hired by those outside of NH) [Gee, perhaps you had something to do with that Greg?] who didn’t understand that having the same registered voter sign for both Nader and Badnarik to get access was illegal (only the first signature counted, and when Nader got his submitted first, that created a mess, which the Democrats took advantage of to help Kerry’s potential totals).”

    Even if all the LP signatures counted, they still did not get enough. Petitioners were hired by Redpath, who told everyone to work Nader too. In some states we subsequently found out we couldn’t. But the need to hire petitioners would not have existed had the NHLP been able to collect 3,000 valid on their own – that is 60 for each of your 50 FSPers (if native NHLPers did none at all).

  • paulie

    By the way, why were Nader’s signatures submitted first? Sounds like better organization on Nader’s part.

  • http://www.reformthelp.org Carl

    Historically, the LP has done its best work as a protest organization. Our purist stances on things like drug legalization and the like, when such positions were horribly unpopular, served to bring such issues into the mainstream.

    We still need an organization to do this type of work. (However, said organization need not be a political party. PETA and Greenpeace do similar work for their causes without being parties.)

    But today, we more need an organization to implement those libertarian ideas that have already been mainstreamed by the libertarian movement’s efforts. My personal goal in launching the LRC was to ask the question: does the LP want to be this organization? Or do we need a new libertarian party for this purpose?

    When the pledge got voted down, I interpreted the answer as “no” and was ready to launch a new party to do mainstream libertarian politics while the LP focuses on being a protest organization. Then, subsequent events led to a reversal [con’d]

  • http://www.reformthelp.org Carl

    of that decision.

    Ever since the LP adopted its mission statement, the LP has been hampered by having two conflicting business plans: 1. be a pure protest organization, 2. be a political party. This is about as sensible as a one-stop auto parts store/day spa.

    The libertarian movement needs BOTH, but they need to be separate organizations. If PETA were to take over the Democratic party, the Republicans would dominate Congress even more. OTOH, if PETA were to admit too many moderates, then they would be less effective in their street theater protests.

    That said, many people can and should be members of both. I want today’s purists to be a [relatively] small caucus inside a MUCH bigger LP.

    And I would visit their hospitality suites — love the debates.

  • http://freestateproject.org Varrin Swearingen

    I’m not inclined to argue as a form of persuasion but here are some observations:

    1. FSP is minarchist in stated goals…

    The SOI uses the word *maximum*. Smaller-than-miniacrchists welcome. Wouldn’t you rather be arguing over the details having already arrived at miniarchy?

    2. …they still can’t do anything about the feds…

    A *lot* can be done about the feds by the states themselves.

    3. They won’t be able to take over state government …

    Maybe not. No other strategy has worked to date. What’s your strategy?

    4. Perceived as outsiders…

    Facts: All of the lefty legislators from my town are not from NH (they got elected). And, NH is *more* free today than it would have been without FSP Participants there.

    5. Removes libertarians from other states.

    See above – if we can’t win here, it doesn’t matter.

    6. Easier target to round ”˜em up.

    I’m an easy target now and have been all along.

    7. Still too cold in the winter.

    They make heaters. Is liberty that unimportant?

    V-

  • David Tomlin

    I might have been interested in FSP if they had chosen Arizona. I wouldn’t consider moving to New Hampshire, because of the climate alone.

    I would have guessed Arizona was a better choice on cultural grounds too. Maybe I’m misinformed, since I’ve never been to either, but I’m thinking the conservativism of New England will turn out to be a significant barrier.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    The Free State Project ignore the fact that, throughout American history, the voters have despised carpetbaggers seeking to change their lives. Whenever the carpetbaggers gained power and later lost it, the reaction more than undid everything the carpetbaggers accomplished. Afterwards, whatever ideals the carpetbaggers espoused- no matter how good or noble- were discredited for generations to come.

    In my personal opinion, FSP is actively destructive to the cause of freedom.

    I really, really hope I’m wrong.

  • ianbernard

    I’m actually glad NH is so cold. It acts as a filter to show who cares the most about Liberty. If you say the FSP is a good idea, but won’t go because of the weather, you don’t really think it’s that good of an idea, do you?

    If this Florida native can go live there, so can someone from Arizona.

    Varrin, nice job addressing those objections!

    Kris, you’re wrong. I’m not in-state yet, but from what I’m told, we’re being very well received.

  • http://libertarianyouth.blogspot.com Nigel Watt

    Damn it, people, the LP is no different than it was a week ago. It has the same members. All the platform does is demonstrate the mean opinion of the party. I disagree with things in the platform and so does everybody else. But the LP is still by far the best political entity for our desires.

    As for spreading the cultural message, that’s the job of Bureaucrash, Liberty for America, Hammer of Truth, the Advocates for Small Government, yada yada yada.

    I actually liked the old platform better too. But are the LP’s candidates different than they were a week ago? No. This is a political party, and the point of a political party is to get people elected. Focus on the candidates, get some of them elected, and then maybe we’ll get something more constructive done other than crying ourselves to sleep over a few changes in the platform while hopelessly masturbating.

  • ianbernard

    What’s hopeless about masturbation?

  • http://www.freedomtarian.com Jon

    I ate dinner in a restaurant in New Hampshire yesterday, and when I walked in they asked me, “Smoking or non-smoking?” I would not be asked this question anywhere else in the northeast. The =ONLY= reason that I was asked that question is because Free State Project participants stood up to the anti-smoking zealots when nobody else would. The reason the ban failed by one vote in the state senate? The anti-smoking zealots use rhetoric and hate to spread their message. They barraged, harangued, and attempted to overpower the senators. The senators did not appreciate that, but they did appreciate the impassioned pleas of the Free Staters and native activists they joined with in asking them to protect private property rights. MP3s of some of the speeches on the senate floor are here: http://www.freestateblogs.net/smokeban
    And the other good thing? Many restaurants in NH don’t ask me if I want to sit in the smoking section, because they no longer have one, by choice. Which is how it should be.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Tim West

    never meet a girl that way. It’s time for the LP to go out and meet some girls.

  • ianbernard

    Yes, we definately need more women in the movement. I can handle that:

    http://freetalklive.com/females.php

  • Brian

    It’s good to shake things up once in a while. The LP needed something.

    FSP? I’m firing New York this Summer and joining the great libertarian activists already living in New Hampshire. I’m honored to have the opportunity to contribute, and I’m gonna work my butt off. Goodbye New York!

    NY vs. NH:
    Lowest State-local bureaucracy – NY #45…NH #4
    Lowest State-local tax burden – NY #49…NH #2
    State business tax climate – NY #50…NH #6
    Economic Freedom Index – NY #50..NH #7
    Most Livable State – NY #32…NH #1
    Healthiest State – NY #33…NH #2
    Safest State – NY #23…NH #4

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Paulie, again, your facts are wrong re Badnarik ballot access. I don’t argue with trolls, so good day sir. I said, good day.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Kris, if this was solely about carpetbagging perhaps… but NH is already (ie _without_ the FSP) the most liberty friendly state. Look at Brian’s NH numbers: #4, #2, #6, #7
    That’s without any freestaters ‘carpetbagging’. In the meantime, we’re doing real activism by being good neighbors first and foremost.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    David: Arizona wasn’t considered, since the population is too large. While it’s a libertarian friendly state, it’s also filled with retirees and others who move for the weather, not for the liberty. NH is the opposite. Even without the FSP, people have been moving to NH for years because of the liberty, not the weather.

    And if climate alone is enough to stop you, what sort of _activist_ are you? You might _vote_ for liberty, but will you sweat, drench, or freeze for it?

  • http://libertarianyouth.blogspot.com Nigel Watt

    Ian: Well, the LP hasn’t climaxed yet, and it’s been 35 years. I’d call that hopeless.

  • http://libertarianyouth.blogspot.com Nigel Watt

    NOTE: Not that there isn’t hope in the future.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    I just wrote this, and it’s worth a repost here:

    Imagine you have a very spicy and weirdly flavored burger, and having a tiny small hole in the wall place to serve it, with a small collection of regulars who enjoy it just as it is. That’s the LP in the past. It’s a funky hole in the wall, despite how good the food is.

    And someone comes in, and offers to show you that you can sell 50x more burgers if you only are willing to sell something a bit more palatable to the average taste. Some will say “you’re selling out”, some will complain that “they like it the way it is”, that “the principle is what matters, not success”. “After all, you don’t care if most people want your food, only the customers who walk in the door, right? And if they take one look, and leave, so be it, their loss. Stupid sheep.”

    That’s the LP at the crossroads.

    (cont)

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    (cont from #41)

    What the convention just did was clear the menu, everything but some of the most basic foods. And let’s see what the LP can cook up now, with the goal of selling it to 51% of the public.

    Because if the LP doesn’t sell to them, McDemocrat and RepublicanKing will.

  • Devious David

    Varrin straight laid the pimp-slap down on any doubters and I thank him for that.

    It’s easier to avail yourself of the cold than it is the heat. Just bundle up to get warmer. In the heat though, after you are naked you can’t take anything off and you’re still hot.

    I guess here we have a bonafide example of fairweather Libertarians, eh?

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    So you’re saying if you just make your hamburgers like McDonald’s, you’ll be a success in the burger business? Why would people want to get a McDonald’s-like burger when they can just go to McDonald’s?

  • http://www.pnar.org/ Tom Blanton

    The deal is that the LP isn’t selling burgers – it is selling ideas. If the ideas are too weird for you and you don’t like them, why did you buy into the LP in the first place?

    If the LP were selling food, would it be more successful if they took the menu and ripped it in half? That is what the LP just did to its platform.

    If the LP were selling burgers from a small hole in the wall and nobody ever tried the burgers, how would people know whether how the burgers tasted? I’d love to see the marketing tests that show that more than a few percent of the voters have read the LP platform, understood it, and rejected it.

    The most common objection I have found to voting libertarian among the general population is the wasted vote objection. The hardcore Republicans and Democrats are the only ones who ever object to libertarian ideas and no matter what is done to the platform, they will never vote libertarian anyway.

  • David Tomlin

    >Seth: Arizona wasn’t considered, since the population is too large.

    David Tomlin: My error. I thought I recalled reading that it was.

    I’m sure at at least one southwestern state was on the list. New Mexico?

    S: And if climate alone is enough to stop you, what sort of _activist_ are you?

    DT: Not an altruistic one. More of a Randian.

    I presently live in Tennessee, which has itself been a destination for migratory libertarians, including Harry Browne.

  • Pingback: the will to exist » The Daily Radar()

  • http://www.phillies2008.org George Phillies

    Having lived in MA in the Summer as well as the winter, I would say that we have real weather, hot in the summer, cold in the winter, but much less cold than the midwest.

    However, relative to other parts of the country we do not have hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, tidal waves, or (unless you live on a few flood plains) heavy rain causing catastrophic flooding. (However, for historic reasons several cities are on flood plains, namely 19th century mill towns are on river banks, so we can produce weather news on occasion.)

  • Julian

    Paulie

    Are you living in

    Washington

    Oregon

    California

    ?

    Please check the correct answer.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    David Tomlin: States considered were Alaska, Delaware, Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, and Wyoming.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    As for the replies re my burger metaphor, it’s a metaphor.
    I am NOT advocating to clone McDemocrat nor RepubliKing (that’s a slightly better name). What the LP has to offer needs to be _viable_, and acceptable _enough_ to gain 34-51%. So far, it has not been.

    Tom B: the marketing tests have been done, Tim West referred to them re Badnarik and the progressive polling. Carl Milsted’s Quiz2D has collected nearly 2 years worth of data that show that 31% test as libertarian, but only 9% as radical libertarian…
    That’s 22% who aren’t purists. If you add another 12% who are centrist-libertarian, that’s 34%, WITHOUT the radicals.
    In other words, 34% even if all of the purists refused to vote. That’s a win.

  • DAP

    Excellently put Tom Blanton #45

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Ok. The LRC confuses me. Those who support it please try to clarify some things for me.

    Other than the LRC advocating drug cases be handled by “drug courts” and doubling the draft pool by including women, and calling for the removal of the language advocating for the right of homosexuals to serve in the military, I do not see a big difference in the LRCs proposed planks versus the old ones.

    So how are you changing the taste of the burger?

    And rather than point to web polls as proof, try pointing me to LRC candidates success “doing real politics”. I know there has been at least one winning candidate.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Chris, I’m not attempting to defend the LRC’s plank one by one. I don’t think Drug Courts or the draft are good issues, personally. I think all of the planks need work.

    As for ‘doing real politics’, how could we? Since when has the LRC ran _any_ candidates. The existing LP platform was the complaint they were talking about, as the burden ON candidates. Give them a few years now.

    I love the way people ask for polls, so you provide polls (both web and scientific) so then they ask for candidates, and if we did point to a few candidates (who ran reform style campaigns, as soft L or D or Rs for example), they’d likely say “But they weren’t running on the platform.” Exactly. That’s the point.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    I know of Ben Brandon who ran on eliminating personal property taxes for seniors. But I also know of Carla Howell’s very impressive showing in Mass. for her initiative to eliminate the income tax. Here in Virginia we recently had a mayoral candidate receive ~43% of the vote in a three-way race in a large city. The LP has elected state legislators in a couple of states in the past. Many of these candidates where fairly “pure” and advocated bold policy proposals. Apparently, the NHLP is poised to elect several members to various positions this year. This is all with the platform as it was and the pledge in place.

    I have a problem with a group whose most vocal members can’t raise more than $1,000 for their state representative races, can’t earn more than 1% of the vote, but still claim some great knowledge about how to elect Libertarians.

    I want my leaders in the LP to be able to point to some success.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    I think we all agree that blue druid candidates who loudly vocalize their intention to smoke pot in the governors mansion don’t win elections. But at least they try.

    If the LRC wants members like myself (and I’m a fairly moderate libertarina) to listen to them, then they should focus on putting forth candidates for office. When those cadidates at least do better than the blue druid, then they will have earned some respect.

    For example, I’ve had some problems with the way Allen Hacker has handled some situations in Badnarik’s campaign. But if the man gets Badnarik even 20% of the vote in a three way race then he’ll get the benefit of the doubt from me from then on. If he gets Badnarik elected he’ll become a libertarian hero. If Badnarik receives 1-2% of the vote, then no one will listen to him again. Badnarik and Hacker are trying to prove themselves. Others are doing the same. They’re not whinning about the pledge and the platform.

  • ianbernard

    It is a mistake to destroy principled positions in order to attract existing voters.

    We’ll be far more successful staying true to principle and attracting those WHO DON’T VOTE. All we need is media attention, that’s what’s been missing for 35 years.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/pong_god Robert Mayer

    Kris (re #28),

    While I agree that that a certain amount of resistance to carpetbaggers should be expected, I submit that they CAN bring lasting changes.

    Several decades ago, Vermont experienced an orchestrated influx of leftists (I object to their use of the terms “liberal” and “progressive”) which seems to have largely succeeded in achieving their objectives. Aside from Vermont’s extremely tolerant stance on gun ownership, it otherwise tends to be far more socialist (anti-freedom) than New Hampshire. I suspect that prior to this migration, the two states were quite similar.

    Perhaps some long-time natives of the area (Hardy?) can comment on this.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Chris: Carla came and spoke to a 40+ group of Porcupines here in New Hampshire. Without a rehash of the entire event, I can summarize that it was a waste of time, and she impressed nobody. The LP in Mass is a joke, and did nothing about mandatory health insurance (for example). Carla likes to milk the close (but no cigar) attempt to end an Income Tax. We not only don’t have an income tax in NH, and it’s unlikely to happen here ever now.

    As for the LPNH electing people, Babiarz, LPNH chair, is running as a Democrat, as are others. Others are running as Republicans. Yes, there is an LP gubernatorial and congressional candidates, but I won’t call them poised to win… Pointing to the LPNH only makes my case, not yours.

    Since the LRC is NOT a party, but only a wing, it is only now that the burden of the platform has been removed, so they can do exactly as you want to see: run and win.

  • http://www.freedomtarian.com Jon

    In 2004 there were 10 uncontested seats out of 40 for the Massachusetts Senate. There were 66 uncontested seats out of 160 for the House.

    Had the income tax repeal passed in 2002, Massachusetts would still have an income tax today. Just like the roll back to 5% passed with 59% of the vote and still has not come to pass, 8 years after it passed. The legislature would have simply re-instated the income tax knowing there are virtually no consequences to pissing off taxpayers in Massachusetts. I voted for it knowing even with 80% voting yes it would never be repealed.

    Carla Howell got into all the gubernatorial debates. She was asked many questions about how she would govern. Every question had one answer, “Small government is beautiful, vote yes on question one!” Had she outlined some policies perhaps she would have cost Romney enough votes for O’Brien to have won, and Massachusetts would really be a cess pool now. Oh wait . . .

  • http://knappster.blogspot.com Thomas L. Knapp

    Another fair idea for jilted purists:

    http://www.bostontea.us

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Seth, I was never making a case, unless you consider my case to be that I think the LRC doesn’t have a very convincing case.

    I was aware that most of the LPNH candidates where running as D’s and R’s. They’re still libertarians, and that’s really all I care about. Seems like a smart political move having nothing to do with the LRC’s campaign against the platform and pledge.

    But to suggest that with a non-platform and no pledge, Libertarians will be elected en masse seems pretty ridiculous to me. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong. But I’m not about to just accept your premises on faith.

    But even if the LP platform looked exactly as the LRC wants, it would still look pretty much the same with the exception of the few issues I addressed. The language is just more, ummm, diplomatic. You’re still going to face MSM bullet points like: * Abolish the income tax, * Any American can own a missle, and * Abolish Social Security.

    Candidates need to raise money, not make excuses.

  • http://www.reformthelp.org Carl

    For those of us settled into our careers and have families and furniture to move, moving to NH is quite expensive. Unless the FSP is mainly those coming straight out of college, a budget of $10K/move is in order. 20,000 people times $10K = $200,000,000. You can win an awful lot of state house races across the country with that kind of money. $200,000 is plenty at the state house level in a mid sized state.

    —-

    Regarding running in races vs. debating the platform: been there done that. I discovered the hard way that running a race above soil and water is excessively difficult without having a base — a base of people who will put your yard signs on their lawn, write checks, distribute literature, get the candidate speaking engagements, etc.

    A good platform makes it possible to recruit a large base. That is my next focus.

    Politics is job 3.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Chris: if not running as a Libertarian is a ‘smart political move’, perhaps you need to look again at just what the LRC is saying, because you are agreeing with them.

    I disagree with you re the bullet points. There should/will be no points like “Everyone can own a missile” If there is, the pragmatists’ cause has been lost, and the purists win. “Abolish social security” would become “Replace Social Security with XYZ” (a positive plan, not a negative).
    “Abolish the Income Tax” would be become “FairTax” OR ” “flattax” or even stay “NoTax” depending on what the best next step that could _win_ would be.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Carl: we have a base here in NH, doing signage spreading, writing checks, etc… so what is that worth to _you_? 10K?
    If so, move to NH, and you’ll have it for years to come.

    For $200,000 spent, you could likely win half the seats in NH (out of 400). I know a number of state reps who have been elected on just $5 spent. The seat only pays $100 a year.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Ian B: Leaving aside the fact that the “educational” strategy has failed and failed miserably for nearly 25 years, nobody said moderating our position was designed to appeal to only those who currently vote. Most of those we’re not going to get anyway. The current non-voters will turn out if there’s something new- but not insane- to support.

    Chris: Well, silly me, I’m still under $1000 because I’m dirt poor and thought, foolish me, that Libertarians would be more likely to support a candidate who only needed 10,000 votes to win than (to use Badnarik as an example) 300,000 votes. As it is, what little money I have raised has come mostly from local, non-Libertarian sources. Yet I go out, I talk where I can, I try to meet people, and in November we shall see what happens.

    Finally, the LRC doesn’t say that moderating the party will lead to magic victories- we say that NOT moderating the party makes victory impossible. The LP has to stop crippling its candidates.

  • ianbernard

    Carl, please stay where you are. You’re one of the people that wants nothing to do with principle. I’m happy to know you won’t be joining us in NH. :)

  • ianbernard

    Kris, glad the truth has come out. You think being principled is tantamount to insanity. Good day.

    Thomas, I’m watching closely, glad someone has picked up the ball and run with it. I read your post on the LP blog onair last night.

  • Seth

    Ian B, the last thing we need is people like YOU telling pragmatists not to move to NH. I won’t do that to anarch types, you don’t do that to moderates, ok? Not even a joke with a smiley.

    There is room for everyone. You can do your radio show and promote purist views all you want. I’ll run for office, and work within the system, and all of the things we moderates want to do.

    Disappointed that you stooped to that sort of level,
    It’s beneath you, and you owe Carl an apology.
    Seth

  • ianbernard

    Normally I encourage anyone with a pro-liberty mindset to move to NH. Carl is the man who wrote the article trashing the principle and attacking the party. I consider him dangerous to Liberty and an agent provocateur.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Seth: “if not running as a Libertarian is a ‘smart political move’, perhaps you need to look again at just what the LRC is saying, because you are agreeing with them.”

    I’m sure I can agree with a lot that the LRC is saying. I just don’t understand the fanatical opposition to the platform and the pledge. And the vitriol aimed at anarchists. From my vantage point, it seems like the LRC is splitting the party for no real gain.

    Kris: “Well, silly me, I’m still under $1000 because I’m dirt poor and thought, foolish me, that Libertarians would be more likely to support a candidate who only needed 10,000 votes to win than (to use Badnarik as an example) 300,000 votes.”

    Badnarik has raised over $300,000 because he figured out how to raise money. You may wish to ask him how he did what he has done rather than blame other Libertarians for YOUR failures.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    “I disagree with you re the bullet points.”

    I’m sorry to say Seth, that you do not get to choose what those bullet points say. Do you think MSNBC consulted the Badarik presidential campaign about the bullet points they used?

    The platform planks with the most votes on the LRC website can be reduced to the bullet points I cited.

    The opposition will still mail out hit pieces based off of whatever platform you write. That’s what happens in “real politics”.

  • http://steveperkins.net Steve Perkins

    Stuart, this post is “walking a thin line” between reconciliation and just plain harmful gloating. Of course, “walking a thin line” is my diplomatic-speak for “crossing the line”. Speaking as a fellow pragmatists, this tact is not helpful dude.

  • http://www.pnar.org Tom Blanton

    Seth writes (50): Tom B: the marketing tests have been done, Tim West referred to them re Badnarik and the progressive polling. Carl Milsted’s Quiz2D has collected nearly 2 years worth of data

    Sorry, Seth – Carl’s little Quiz2D quiz is not a scientific poll. No online poll or quiz is. The participants are self-selecting, not random. After seeing many of Carl’s articles where he pulls numbers out of the air and graphs his own suppositions, I wouldn’t trust his numbers anyway. It is not like he has no agenda. The Quiz2D thing is like going to DailyKos to find out how many people are progressive democrats or going to anti-state.com to see how many people are anarchists.

    It is time to get real. It is probably time for the LP to do some real focus group work and chart what creates movement in a libertarian direction. This is real pragmatism, not ego driven hokum.

  • Brian

    This whole debate has made me see how ridiculous some of the the “purists” are being. There’s nothing wrong with being extreme, and nobody is arguing that. But you just don’t put those views in a political party platform. Unless you are content with having only blue dudes and druids as your candidates, excluding anyone but private nuke an-caps, and receiving 1.2% in elections. The point of a political party is to get people in office closer to your views. Maybe the “purists” would be better served by a “Libertarian Organization” than a Libertarian Party. As things have stood, the LP has only served to waste votes of liberty loving people and made the Republicans and Democrats even worse than they would be in the process.

    I’m not that optimistic about winning liberty through elections, and I think the free state project is the way to go. But implementing a consensus platform, and a more reasonable pledge, are good steps if we are still participating in the election process.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Tom: you just ignored that I pointed you to scientific polling that Tim West mentioned.

    For the record, I agree with you re: focus groups, etc.
    My point was that saying there is _no_ evidence is untrue. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence, to the point that denying that there is an issue here is absurd. The _exact_ answer needs more work, testing, polling, etc etc.

    Chris: I don’t get to choose what bullet points: the LP convention does. And guess what: they just did.
    The media can’t list bullets that aren’t part of a platform,
    or a candidate’s positions.

    What are they gonna say now? “So Mr L. Isn’t it true you guys _used_ to advocate for complete legalization?” “Why yes, Katie, it is true,but we’ve decided that focusing on a reasonable short term goal of legalized marijuana, which is supported by 73% of the public, is a better approach. The radicals no longer control our party, which is why we expect to win this time.” Joe Voter: hmm, sounds like the candidate for me.

  • http://www.ilovephysics.com Chris Moore

    Could have said something to that effect before, Seth.

    But you miss my point. The LP convention doesn’t get to choose the bullet points. Producers for MSNBC, opposition candidates, etc. choose what the bullet points say.

    I actually agree with many things the LRC proposes, I just think the way it was accomplished managed only to piss off a lot of people and splinter the party.

  • Stuart Richards

    Stuart, this post is “walking a thin line” between reconciliation and just plain harmful gloating. Of course, “walking a thin line” is my diplomatic-speak for “crossing the line”. Speaking as a fellow pragmatists, this tact is not helpful dude.

    What? I wasn’t joking up there. I’d much, much rather the purists stay in the party… but if they don’t I’d rather see them contributing to the movement somehow. I don’t assume that every single purist out there is a party veteran, and it might be that a few of them honestly don’t know what all they can do for liberty.

    The post isn’t meant as a “HAHA YOU LOSE HERE’S THE DOOR” kinda thing, but a “how can we all continue to fight the power after Portland?” kinda thing.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    It will unsplinter soon enough. if you only got back half of the LP activists who have burned out and left the LP as hopeless or got called out by other liberterians as nazis, statists, and demopublican spies and infiltrators over the last 30 years, we’ll have bout 30,000 peeps.

    I know this becuase I’ve been invited out of the LP on both the state and national level 2 or 3 times, and anyone else like me has too, I’m sure.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Tim, not just invited out, but also self-opted out in many many cases, because they grew tired of dealing with those so clearly in control of the party, despite the failures of it.
    I have talked to many who feel like that, and myself included, who have left the LP or refused to spend time/money/energy on it because the ones at the helm insisted in driving full speed ahead into the brick walls.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    IanB: I think taking principle to extremes is insane, yes. I think abolishing regulation of nuclear technology is insane- yet the LP advocated it until this past weekend. I think abolishing the military is insane. I think advocating unilateral secession, without the federal government’s consent, is insane.

    And I’m -open- to these concepts. The average voter considers abolishing public education insane- abolishing taxation insane- cutting off Welfare, Social Security and Medicare payments all at once insane- completely open borders and unilateral free trade insane. When you explain that the principle naturally leads to these positions, they don’t adopt the positions- they REJECT THE PRINCIPLE.

    And they also reject the candidate who keeps parroting that principle without regard to what the voters believe on the subject.

    That’s why I stick with my own principle: “the least government practical, and the most freedom possible, for ALL the people equally.”

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    Tim, Seth: On an annual basis, sometimes much more frequently.

    To repeat, I’m only in the LP because it’s the only party that calls for smaller government and greater freedom (the Republicans and Democrats are demonstrated liars). If another party started up here in Texas that also advocated smaller government, I’d seriously consider switching… between election cycles. During an election year I consider it irresponsible and unfaithful to jump ship- I may disagree with what my party stands for, but it is still my party.

    I suspect there are, and have been, a lot of people like me- Libertarians only because it was either the LP or do without.

    And a LOT of LPers have done their damndest to encourage people like me to do without.

  • ianbernard

    Kris, stealing money from people at gunpoint is insane. That’s what you’re advocating, in violation of the oath you signed.

    There’s nothing insane about advocating voluntary alternatives to government programs. That’s all I’m doing.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    I bet you havent actually been barred from running as a libertarian though. My state chair at the time refused to certify me as a LP candidate and told me she would never sign a paper doing so. I didnt agree with her position on childhood immunizations and that if kids want to go to school with mumps, measles, polio, and scarlet fever, that’s the parents right to do. I told her that was nuts and that those vacs have probably saved hundreds of thousands of kid’s lives since they were developed.

    She proceeded to call me a nazi and a statist and blackball me out of the WVLP. And I know from other people’s first hand accounts that this same scenario has happened to so many others that I could never count them all. Principle wielded to the extreme end; without regard for anything else that is a part of the human condition is what has been wrong. Principle without the context to understand it is just another form of slavery.

  • D Walter

    So, tell us…

    Just which LP members residing within your district actually were given a chance to say they WANTED you to “represent” them at the polls?

    What work did you do to EARN the LP’s ballot line?

    Or did you just think it was something you were entitled to demand?

    “Hi, I’m Tim, and whether you want me or not, I’m your candidate!”

  • paulie

    re: #36, what facts are wrong? I read your link and so no proof I got anything wrong at all. I’ll ask Gary if he wants to post on this thread since he worked NH. If anyone is a troll, it’s you, and g’day to you too.

  • paulie

    Julian (48)

    No state. I’m a permanent traveller, AKA road dog.

  • D Walter

    In fact, let’s review the qualifications some have for “speaking with authority” about how to win elections:

    A one-time, splash-in-the-pan try for public office doesn’t make someone an expert on political organizing. Getting a whopping total of 3.5% out of 6832 votes does not qualify one as an expert. Raising 2.6% of $23,929 in contributions ($644) in one election cycle does not make one an expert — especially when that entire 2.6% came from the candidate, and one family member. …. Flash-in-the-pan campaigns – which start out with an unprepared candidate who doesn’t raise any money, who has invested no time in building a local LP support network over several years, who isn’t active in his own community and is therefore completely unknown, and which predictably finish with lackluster results – are not particularly useful to the LP.

  • http://voteoverstreet.org Kris Overstreet

    D Walt: I can’t speak for Tim, but I was nominated at convention by representatives from my district- essentially the same group as attend our local county meetings. It’s a rural district, so one of the two counties in the district has no LP organization.

    The local people know me and, by and large, agree with me that the LP needs serious reform. They nominated me knowing full well who I was and what I believe in- and what I don’t.

    I collected signatures in my county during the 2004 Texas ballot access drive- so, in a very small way, I helped the LP earn a ballot line for me to be on.

    Finally, yes, anyone is entitled to -demand- any party’s nomination. Nobody is entitled to GET it- we have NOTA for good reasons- but we should at least hear out those seeking nomination before turning them away.

    Ian B: Voluntary funding of government has been tried, and it has failed. I advocate reducing the theft because calling for its elimination is just plain not credible to the voters.

  • ianbernard

    “Vote for me, I won’t steal from you as much as them!”

    Boy, what an awesome position to take.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    D Walter: We’ve been over that before too. I made every possible mistake a first time LP candidate could make, and it shows. I hadnt even lived here a year yet at that time.

    and since I have never claimed ANYWHERE of any ‘expertise’ in advocating what I think the LP should or should not do, all that retread tells me is that I’m really getting under your skin. :)

    I’m not gonna fuck with you detailing my campaign. What purpose would it serve?

    How bout you telling me when you lst ran for office as a libertarian? Even the worst effort is better than none at all.

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    Ya know what, I’ll answer the same questions Kris did. I guess just becuase he did it.

    I was nominated by the WVLP at Convention in Weston WV, and Richard Kerr and the rest of the statewide candidates welcomed me with open arms. I didnt get a raft of shit from some committee or some state chair asking me 20 questions about what I believed in or not. We had major party ballot status in 2000, so I didnt have to get sigs. We ran more candidates for office in 2000 than the Republicans did.

    There is no LP in this county, and every effort to organize same has failed. People here are married to their careers down in DC, they are all government employees, and depend on the government for 2 paychecks per family, sometimes more. They love DC, they spent half their life there. I was surprised I got the votes I did.

    re the third statement, they were happy to see me and thrilled they would have a candidate in the eastern panhandle becuse they then got to claim statewide support in a PR.

  • Liberty Crusader

    Ok, I need to set the record straight. Seth is not grounded in reality re. Badnarik sigs in NH in ’04, although it’s not his fault, since I don’t think he was involved in ballot access in NH in ’04.

    I was.

    I was one of the paid pro circulators in NH, and can tell you we did NOT double-circulate for both Nader and the LP. Anything to the contrary is a rumor, nothing more.

    Bill Redpath, who directed the paid petition effort there, verifies that, in neither of the Congr. districts in NH, were there enough signattures EVEN ASSUMING 100% VALIDITY. This was due to a miscommunication betweeen the NH Chair and the State Ballot Access Coordinator, as to how many sigs we had in hand as the deadlined approached.

    Seth, please get your facts straight before miscorrecting Paulie.

    Oh yeah, Bill Redpath is now national LP chairman.

  • David Tomlin

    >Tim West: . . . and since I have never claimed ANYWHERE of any ”˜expertise’ . . .

    David Tomlin: You frequently make ex-cathedra assertions, implicitly claiming expertise.

  • Bill Dawson

    Having grown up in Upstate NY and Cape Cod, MA until age 18 I can tell you that the winters up there SUCK! I said I would NEVER go back!

    I have lived in Atlanta now for 15 years and guess what? I am more concerned with the erosion of our FREEDOM(no ‘s’ please) than a little bit of personal comfort.

    NH here I come!!!!

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    I exactly advocate what I believe o be the right course of action, the same as you. Under that scenario, every person on HoT is a expert, including you.

    I still want to see D Walters personal campaign expose. If he’s never run for office himself, then pffffft. Fuck him/her/it. Even the worst paper candidate is better than he is.

  • http://www.phillies2008.org George Phillies

    “In 2004 there were 10 uncontested seats out of 40 for the Massachusetts Senate. There were 66 uncontested seats out of 160 for the House.”

    66 is the count of contested seats, not uncontested seats. We are never close to 50% being contested.

  • http://freestateproject.org Seth

    Dear Mr. “Liberty Crusader” aka Gary, sorry, but the facts I’ve heard contradict your (and Paulie’s secondhand) account.
    http://www.badnarik.org/supporters/blog/2004/10/01/conclusion-jumping-and-tail-eating/
    is more credible to me, given that I know the people involved who back it up. And BTW, mr paid petitioner, your chief argument seems to rest on the fact that you did a poor job. No wonder you don’t want to ID yourself. :)

  • http://www.freedomtarian.com Jon

    “66 is the count of contested seats, not uncontested seats. We are never close to 50% being contested.”

    I looked at the PDF of the election results and counted by hand the number of seats (to verify I wasn’t missing any) and the number that only had one name associated with it. You may verify that here:
    http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/eleres/stateeleres04.pdf

    Now you might say a 58k to 11k result is barely contested, but it counts as contested in my tally. In house races, in the 7th Bristol district the Democrat got 9657 and the Libertarian got 1668, there was no Republican on the ballot. A few other seats saw Republicans getting a worse beating heads up against a Democrat.

    To be honest I’ve heard that as many as 75% of the seats in the state house go uncontested. That may include “barely contested” seats, or maybe 2004 was an unusual year. 2002’s results are online but require a lot more attention to decipher, and I ain’t doing it.

  • Julian

    Paulie

    A permanent traveler? How? Hitching rides with OTR truck drivers and hanging out at truck stops? How do you make a living? Is it legal? (Forget what you think is legal or illegal). Do you dabble in drug sales or other sales? How about gun running? I heard through the grapevine you may be the person to talk to about automatic weapons, missles and explosives not that I want any. Since you do not believe in illegality, why not?

    You could do the disservice you are already probably doing to any facsimile of order since you are an extremist anarchist with hints of supporting violent overthrow of the USA without directly saying it.

    You do a very delicate dance with words, probably trying to stay one step ahead of BATFE, DEA, etc. Good for you, girl. Let’s see if you get away with it.

  • Wes P

    What do you do for a living, Julian? Let’s rip it apart.

  • Julian

    Wes P

    Retired capitalist self-employed).

    Investing is my primary hobby.

    Hassling really stupid people on the internet is my passion.

    What do you do?

  • paulie

    Self-employed as well. Sales and promotions. Perfectly “legal”. Mostly ride with friends, sometimes by Greyhound. Hitchhiking – very rarely anymore, although I often used to in my teens and even twenties.

    Julianne – quite a fevered imagination you have, dear.

  • Menno Troyer

    I find it disturbing how much vitriol is being exchanged between the pragmatist and anarchist types. The fact is, we disagree in varying degrees on both methodology and long-term objectives, and no amount of in-fighting will change that. It is a colossal waste of time and seriously undermines strategic alliances, both of which are indispensable in our shared quest for liberty in our lifetime. I would offer that anyone engaging in verbal hostility toward other types of pro-liberty activists is actually engaging in anti-liberty activism. If we wish to advance liberty, we must stay focused on identifying common ground wherever it exists, then using that common ground to team up and get things done.

  • David Tomlin

    >Timothy West: I exactly advocate what I believe to be the right course of action, the same as you. Under that scenario, every person on HoT is a expert, including you.

    David Tomlin: Mostly I either argue for a conclusion, or indicate that I’m only expressing my opinion. You constantly make flat assertions, accumulating into a subtext of ‘people should believe what I say just because I, Timothy West, say so.’

  • http://www.freeme.org Keith

    Ian in comment #69 said, “Normally I encourage anyone with a pro-liberty mindset to move to NH. Carl is the man who wrote the article trashing the principle and attacking the party. I consider him dangerous to Liberty and an agent provocateur.”

    Well, who cares if Carl wants to attack the LP. Hell, in NH we have Democats, Independents, and Republicans that don’t care for the LP working hard to increase freedom. The FSP is not related to one party and neither is the NH freedom movement.

    Carl or anyone else is welcome in NH, as far as I am concerned.

  • D Walter

    Expert Sez: “and since I have never claimed ANYWHERE of any ”˜expertise’ in advocating what I think the LP should or should not do, all that retread tells me is that I’m really getting under your skin. :)”

    The fact that you continue to respond to me is evidence that I get under yours.

    And yes. People who prescribe medicine when they aren’t credentialed doctors does get under my skin. Sloppy, and entirely emotion-based thinking do kinda get under my skin. People who engage in it cheapen the entire human race. Same as a mosquito irritates me enough to give it a smack-down once in a while.

    Expert Sez: “I’m not gonna fuck with you detailing my campaign. What purpose would it serve?”

    Because poking holes in your sloppy excuses for logic occasionally entertains me.

    Besides, I could never compete with you and your motormouth allies (such as Wilson), who sit behind sloppy desks while engaging in sloppy thinking self-righteously distributing their sloppy work on multiple blogs every day. You guys have come as far as you have only because of sheer volume. I hesitate to think of how many hours your multiple-blog “work” squanders. Those you dislike and wish to drum out of the Party are outside running info tables and interacting with voters.

  • D Walter

    Expert Sez: “How bout you telling me when you lst ran for office as a libertarian? Even the worst effort is better than none at all.”

    You’ve obviously forgotten our prior conversation about this. I’m not going to answer any of your questions for two reasons. 1) to irritate you; and 2) because I am wholly, completely, and entirely confident that my own work for the Party has been of far longer duration than yours, has involved more actual work (as opposed to blathering endlessly on every blog I could find), has resulted in the recruitment of more supporters, has entailed more hours holding petitions, and has meant I’ve held more public offices than you.

    You will never get more of an answer than that. Let it drive you crazy if you want. It’s you who has been running around for the past two years attempting to denounce, discredit, and (ultimately) purge people like me. You should be defensive. I’ve spent most of the long interims between my posts doing Party work. Meanwhile, there you sit, dazzled by your own wit and wisdom about how stupid folks like me are and how we’ve done everything wrong, and how we have the wrong “mindset”.

  • Kevin

    The elimination of platform elements in the LP is not in any way equal to ripping a menu in half to try to attract more people; the full menu (and more) is still available, but now it’s up to the individual candidates to decide which elements to support and emphasis in order to get elected in a given districts. This seems logical to me.

    I realize this is an imperfect comparison for many reasons (mostly economic), but it’s more like this:

    The McDonalds corporation (the LP) decides to throw out parts of the menu and support the individual franchise restaurants (LP candidates) in selling the food items they feel are best provided they do it under the McDonalds franchise (fundamental Libertarian beliefs.) The restaurants can continue to serve the same food items though they no longer have to, or they can vary slightly. They can also emphasise different products which are more pertainant to their areas.

  • Liberty Crusader

    Speaking of “poor job”, Seth, it’s clear that you have extremely poor skills in diplomacy, civility and otherwise “how to win friends and influence people”. I’ve read this entire thread, including comments by Paulie, and I can see nothing either of us have done to warrant such abrasive personal attacks…& you don’t even know either of us. I think the other readers should be able to judge just who is trying to ignite controversy and who is trying to get to the bottom of the issue at hand.

    On what possible basis can you, armed with absolutely no knowledge of my work schedule in NH, assert that I did a “poor job”? What if I told you that the NH ballot coordinator instructed that I & my team collect exactly 600 signatures, and absolutely no more under any circumstances, and that these signatures were collected promptly and timely in a matter of 2 or 3 days? Shouldn’t your “poor job” jab be directed at the coordinators rather than the circulators? Your audacity is breathtaking.

  • Liberty Crusader

    Seth, my internet moniker has been Liberty Crusader for a very long time, and is not a reflection of my not wanting to “ID myself” (why people like you have such a penchant for jumping to premature, negative and fallacious conclusions about someone you don’t even know, I’ll never understand). While I may be loathe to ID myself to police officers who have less-than-honorable ulterior motives, I have no problem doing so on libertarian discussion sites.

    By the way, Bill Redpath has been a highly credible source on ballot access issues for over 15 years, as well as an accomplished executive Certified Public Accountant for almost 30 years. He is now LP nat’l chariman. He has never once lied to, or otherwise misled me about any signature numbers (or any numbers), and I think his competence in such matters speaks for itself.

    Thus you’ll have to pardon me if I lend more credence to Bill’s assessment of the signature totals than yours.

    Sincerely,

    Gary L. Fincher

  • http://freestateproject.org/ Seth

    Gary, last reply from me on this… I just want to point out that the contradictions between your story and the others is glaring. If you were able to get 600 signatures in just 2-3 days but told expressly not to collect more…, why does Paulie claim that “I know the people who worked the NHLP ballot access drive. It failed. Some of them have told me they would never work NH again. People were really not into signing in that state” Which is true?, since both can’t be, they conflict. Why would you be told to not collect more, since having more would help insure Badnarik’s status?

    I trust those who have said we had enough raw sigs here, and the problem was the certifications. You claim that _you_ did no double signing (ie having someone who signed for Nader), among other things, yet I have heard differently, and it’s clear (google for it) that Nader petitioners were a problem, since it ended up in the Ballot Law Commission’s lap.

  • Liberty Crusader

    “I just want to point out that the contradictions between your story and the others is glaring.”

    Seth, that much is true. The issue then, becomes: who’s the one with the motivation to issue the false version, Redpath or Babiarz? Myself, I find Redpath more credible. If there indeed exists 3K or 4K signatures in each House District, let’s produce copies of them and prove Redpath wrong, once and for all? Until such a thing can be done, I must assume that volume of sigs never existed. That’s just reason and logic.

    NH sigs WERE difficult to collect, it was like pulling teeth to get NHers to sign, the typical voter would just stand there like a retard and look at the petition, never comment, and then just walk away, despite eloquent summonings for them to sign. I very well may have said that I won’t work NH again, due to this.

    And what’s conflicting about the fact that my team of 3 dug in our heels on a difficult task and made sure that we nevertheless collected the 600?

  • Liberty Crusader

    Also, Seth (since you seem to lack a frame of reference on how fast sigs generally are collected by pros) I should point out that 600 NH sigs in 2-3 days by three pros reflects difficulty in collection. Outside of NH, I have, on numberous occasions, collected over 400 sigs all by myself in a SINGLE DAY. That should drive the point home on NH difficulty.

    As for Nader sigs interfering with Badnarik sigs, why don’t you consider that that possibility could occur even WITHOUT any circulators double-petitioning, if the respective Nader and Badnarik circulators were in close proximity to each other, drawing from the same pool of voters. However, even if this occurred, it’s a moot point given the fact that less than 2K Badnarik sigs were collected in each district (per Redpath’s count).

    Why we were told not to collect more than 600 would be an excellent question for John Babiarz, not for me. Could be he had something up his sleeve? I don’t know.

  • Seth

    Gary, you keep changing the facts. And the more you do, the less I trust you. The conflicts are between your version(s) and paulie, who are ‘on the same side’.

    1) Nobody ever claimed 3K-4K in _each district, that’s sum total between the 2. 1.5K in each.
    2) If you are a paid petitioner, it’s your job to ensure that signers are eligible. Clearly, you (collectively) didn’t.
    3) Paulie blames the locals for their not collecting, and yet says how hard it was for paid people to help collect. Then you say how you collected 600 in 2-3 days, now you reverse and say that it was hard, in which case, why lay blame on the locals? I suspect your signature collecting more and more as flawed.
    4) The worst is your attempt to insinuate that Babiarz “had something up his sleeve”, again, laying blame on the locals, instead of on those at fault: people like you who collected sigs that weren’t valid, but were paid for them regardless, and the officials who didn’t certify sigs in a timely manner.

  • Liberty Crusader

    Seth, I have no idea what you are talking about. You are wildly confused, or something.

    Who in the heck told you that I changed any facts?? Who in the heck told you that I “clearly” didn’t screen ineligible voters?? Who in the heck told you that I “reversed” anything by saying that NH collecting was hard?? (I have stated all along that it was hard, as in it taking three ciculators three days to collect a mere 600 signatures can attest.) Who the heck told you that we collected sigs that weren’t valid??

    I am seriously wondering about your ability at reasoning, or common sense, as items 1-4 (above) make no sense whatsoever.

    Why do you insist on attacking paid circulators who are earnestly trying to tell you what we collected, how we collected them, how long it took us to collect them, and who told us to collect them? And why do you attack the national ballot access coordinator who earnestly tallied up the signatures from the totals he was given by those on the ground in NH?

  • Liberty Crusader

    “I suspect your signature collecting more and more as flawed”

    What would you have suggested I do instead, Seth – put a gun to voters’ heads and force them to sign?

    Geeeeezzzzz

  • paulei cannoli

    Seth

    1)True, but you (actually, “anonymous source”) quoted by Trinward (probably your bud Babiarz?) claimed 3900-4800, which BTW would often not be enough to get 3000 valid in many states, especially with the CD distribution requirement. Gary says Redpath told him less than 3000 TOTAL. I tend to believe Redpath above “anonymous source”.

    2) Collective blame is for collectivists.

    3) 600 signatures by three people in three days is crap. Gary’s done close to 600 in one day by himself before.

  • paulie cannoli

    4) The worst is that Seth keeps blaming the petitioners.

    Yet Gary has worked in well over 30 states and NH is one of only three I remember him saying he’d rather never go back to.

    Gary, and Christy (who also worked NH) both told me that Babiarz told them to stop petitioning early. Christy had eighteen petitioners on her crew.

    Christy said that Babiarz and Kafoury (Nader national ballot access coordinator) both told her to double-petition in NH.

    Kafoury and Redpath both told us to double-petition in Pennsylvania, and Klymer (Constitution Party) told Andy to double-petition LP and CP but Dan Martino of the PA Nader campaign told us that was illegal in PA so we left.

    Thought about doing Nader in MD, decided to do LP in DC. Many of our other people (but not us) also worked Nader in DC, where we can. We did Nader in VA for one day, a mistake and disaster, and then both in Alabama where it’s also legal.

    Back to the NH issue: Babiarz is running as a D and his wife as R hm

  • http://www.libertyforsale.com Timothy West

    Walter,

    no reaction from me required. Whatever.